hello all.
i dont know if this is the right area for debate most i have read on here is pretty childish. But im looking for debaters to handle this topic on the trinity. Ex jws say they now have the truth and many have gone back to churches. Thus back to the teachings of them, i would like to chat with people who have a proper understanding of this doctrine. My first question is who is god? by that i mean, what is it, as james white said in his book the forgotten trinity , three whats and one whom.
The trinity teaches that there is on being made up of three persons, would some one show me that in the bible.
waiting for intelligent discussion.
God three whats and one whom????????????
by airmail special 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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airmail special
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borgfree
Hi Airmail Special and welcome,
I will only start your responses. I am at work, but also, the Trinity is a very difficult subject, and there are many here that can do a much better job than I.
The way I understand it, there is One God, just like there is one human race, but there are several billion humans. The One God is three persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, but only the one entity, God.
The most convincing evidence for me is the fact that the bible uses the very same terms for all three. Mighty God, Savior, Creator, Rock, Lord, etc.
After looking up all those scriptures (shortly after leaving the WT) I came to the conclusion that if the bible called all three God, I was not going to argue with the bible.
There is much more, I will leave it up to others to give more information.
Borgfree
"You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses." -Ziggy
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Liberty
Hi Airmail Special,
I'm not the best person to debate the Trinity because I'm an Atheist and, ultimately, I don't think it matters much, however, I have always been struck by the confusion Bible writers had about just what a god is. The whole confusion surrounding the Trinity is due to the fact that God was never clearly defined in the Bible and that the multiple tribal gods of the Old Test. are melded and morphed into the Jesus concept of the New Test.. It is clear to me from reading the New Test. that these late writers believed Jesus was indeed God.
JWs are too quick to disagree with this (the Trinity) because it doesn't make logical sense that there could be a God the Father and a God the Son but yet agree with all the other nonsense presented in the Bible. It is also obvious from early Old Test. books that there were multiple gods working on the Creation and that the Hebrews believed in the reality and power of other tribes' gods as well, with their own god being one of many fighting for control in the region.
When looked at objectively, it is clear that pure modern style Monotheism was an unknown concept to the Bible writers. Hence, I think the Trinity concept was not seen as strange to the early Church Fathers who were comfortable in a Polytheistic world where men routinly became gods and gods often appeared as men. The fear of other gods drove the Isrealites to their extreme measures against idolatry because they took these other gods seriously. A true Monotheist wouldn't worry so much about mute statues if they believed they were false/nonexistant gods as they would become merely art objects, the same goes for a true singular god himself who would laugh at false gods rather than being "jealous" of them and warning against asking them favours. The whole Trinity argument has its roots in this Biblical confusion over the nature of God or even of the number of gods which were thought to have power and substance.
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Double Edge
The following might be helpful from a historical standpoint...it also contains links within the text that you might find interesting:
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Justin
The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, derived from the decision of the Council of Nicea of 325 C.E., states the following:
"I believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth . . . And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father . . . And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified . . ."
This is the classical definition of Trinitarianism. It must be understood in the light of the alternatives which were offered at that time in history. One was Arianism - the belief that the Logos-Christ was a creature (and which is held by JWs today) - and the other was Modalism. Modalism was the belief that God was one Person who played three roles - that of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Modalism can easily be mistaken for Trinitarianism, and people today who are simply contented to say that "Jesus is God" are frequently Modalists without realizing it. Both Modalism and Arianism have the advantage that they are logically consistent within themselves, but neither of these theories takes into consideration all the Scriptural evidence regarding the relationship of Jesus to the Father.
To illustrate the three approaches, let's look at John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God." The Arian says, "the Word was a god" (without the article), meaning that the word was a separate and distinct being from the Father. The Modalist says, "The Word was God," and therefore must have been the Father. But the Trinitarian says, "The Word was God," but not the Father.
Historically, the best way to explain the Trinity is to begin with the Father, and then to show the relationship of the Son and Spirit to the Father. The Son is begotten of the Father, meaning that the Son is generated out of the Father and is therefore not a separate and distinct God. The Spirit is like the breath of the Father's mouth, and is therefore divine like the Father.
In his "Dogmatic Theology, Vol. IV - The Trinity," Francis J. Hall wrote in 1910:
"(a) Several particulars are to be noted. In the first place, the principle of origin in the Trinity is absolutely one, and is seated in the Father. . . . The other divine Persons proceed from Him, but He proceeds from none. Each divine Person is [theos - God], for each possesses the divine essence, and without confusion contains the other two; but the Father is [Autotheos - God himself].
"(b) This introduces the second particular, that neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit is [Autotheos], for each derives His essence - His being as God - from the Father. These two are God in a subordinate MANNER, although not in a subordinate SENSE of the word God. That is, their being God is due to their proceeding from the Father; but they are as truly God as is the Father, because the very essence of the Father is fully and eternally Theirs. They are co-eternal and co-equal with God the Father." (p. 239)
Hall also states: ". . . when the Persons are mentioned together it is the Father alone to whom the name God is applied. This is so because He is the fountain of Deity, and the other two Persons are God because They are derived from Him and participate in His essence. They are indeed given divine titles at times when separately mentioned, lest we should be deceived as to Their co-equality with the Father; but none the less care is taken when the Father is mentioned with Them . . ." (p. 241)
This is not to deny that other Trinitarians refuse to recognize these relationships between the Persons, or to recognize that there is subordination WITHIN the Godhead, and thus revert to a sort of Modalism. But it also means that most JW arguments (coming from the opposite extreme of Arianism) are actually refutations of Modalism rather than the formal Trinitarian doctrine that was worked out in the fourth century.
Once the terms are clearly defined, let all search the Scriptures to determine which theory is most in accord with the Scriptural evidence.
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Simon
I think the bible does lean towards teaching a trinity and this type of combined god was more common in ancient times.
The mix up may come from that fact that the sect of 'Jehovah' originated from a combined god but was turned into a single deity.
I'll have to find the book on it to the the details right.
However, just because the bible does have this doesn't make me believe it's true just as I don't believe that all the animals on the planet were put in a wooden box for a year during a global flood as it is so easy to disprove scientifically that the bible has no credibility IMHO
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NeonMadman
While I have great respect for Dr. James White, I can't say I care much for his "three whats and a who" approach to the Trinity.
Here's how I understand it: the Bible refers to the Father as God, to the Son as God, and to the Holy Spirit as God, and yet, the Bible also makes quite clear that there is only one God. Therefore, the three persons must be the one God. I can't quite wrap my mind around that concept, any more than I can fully appreciate that God has always existed without a beginning - but why should we expect that our finite human minds can fully comprehend the infinite God?
When you say,
The trinity teaches that there is on being made up of three persons, would some one show me that in the bible.
I have to respond, there is no one scripture in the Bible that presents the Trinity clearly as you request. But all the scriptures taken together paint the picture clearly enough that we can at least understand what is there, if not comprehend it in detail.Frankly, this makes more sense to me than the polytheism of the JW's with their "Big God" Jehovah and their "Little god" Jesus.
Tom
"Gentlemen, he said, I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes, I've moved your mountains and marked your cards. But Eden is burning"
--Bob Dylan -
Adonai438
Very Simply put.........
The Bible states:
*There is one and only one true God
*Whose name Is Yahweh, 'I am'
*The Father is called God, The Son IS called God, The Holy Spirit is called God.
*All three have the same eternal qualities ie: omnicient,omnipresent,Holy,infinite,eternal,etc...
*All three are called God & THE God(Elohim & Theos & Ho Theos), Lord(Adonai & Kyrios), LORD(Yahweh)etc.......
*All three speak as Yahweh & as God
etc....................Thus the concept of the Trinity: One Being,God, existant in 3 persons.
3 distinct separate personages but one in being,purpose,essence-One God. It is the only way to stick to everything the Bible says about God. If these claims are something you care to discuss then let me know but this is it in a nutshell and is entirel backed by scripture.
God bless, <>< Angie