by enigma1863 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I have been thinking about basic theology a lot and the more i think about it the more rediculous it sounds.
So Adam and Eve died from a small sin of eating a piece of fruit. If sin causes death why is Satan not dead?
Why didnt adam and eve die that very day like god said? Why punish a snake if it was just being used by satan? Would adam and eve have died from sinning if they ate from the tree of life first?
Is Satan still perfect if he disobeys god? Did humans make the first sin?
Enigma said- I have been thinking about basic theology a lot and the more i think about it the more rediculous it sounds.
It is, and you really don't need to go beyond Genesis to see that it's all a load of Fruit Loops.
Enigma asked- So Adam and Eve died from a small sin of eating a piece of fruit. If sin causes death why is Satan not dead?
Technically, Satan doesn't even appear in the story: that's a later Xian doctrinal interpretation that's inserted, saying the serpent is symbolic for Satan. Jews have never seen the serpent to be anything but the cleverest of the "beasts of the field", likely done to later justify use of animals (beasts of the field) for sacrificial purposes to atone for the sins of humans.
Besides that, Satan is supposedly an immortal being, not mortal; hence, he doesn't experience mortality (death).
Enigma asked- Why didnt adam and eve die that very day like god said?
Yeah, the time frame shifts, since the serpent says "the day you eat from the fruit, your eyes will be opened" and that occurred the same day to Adam and Eve. OT and NT authors tried to cover for God's lie ("The DAY you eat from the fruit, you shall positively die") saying that a day to God is 1,000 yrs to mankind, so God wasn't speaking in HUMAN days, but referring to days in Heavenly Standard Time. M'kay....
Either that excuse, OR, the JWs claim it was a 'spiritual death' only, with Adam being cut off and removed from God's presence (as they claim DFed individuals are), so basically Adam and Eve were as good as dead, the walking dead.
Enigma asked- Why punish a snake if it was just being used by satan? Would adam and eve have died from sinning if they ate from the tree of life first?
The serpent was serving as a representative member of his group ("beasts of the field": apparently ancient Jews thought of reptiles as members of same group that includes mammals (like sheep and cows), when they all belong to the Animal Kingdom, along with homo sapiens). Likely done to excuse use of animals for sacrifices (AKA blaming the victims, saying they brought it upon themselves; as seen in the original sin concept, Hebrews had no problem with inherited debt, whether mankind inheriting original sin of Adam, or all animals inheriting the original sin of the serpent).
The broader perspective though is the story serves as an explanation of how ancient listeners got to where they were, with the tale serving literally as their 'origins myth', telling them the story of their ancient past. If the story didn't do that, then it would've failed to serve its purpose.
Enigma asked- Is Satan still perfect if he disobeys god? Did humans make the first sin?
"Perfect" is a Xian insertion into the Hebrew account: Jews didn't think of the first pair as "perfect", and the word doesn't appear in the Hebrew story.
The account (esp the Xian interpretation) has more holes in it than Swiss cheese, a few of the continuity errors which are discussed here:
It is a miracle that Western civilization survivef until Adamah was born.
Jehovah did not just kill Satan...God has a huge Ego so.....instead for thousands of years he allowed his children to suffer death, sickness, war and famine. Just to prove a point....he even allowed Job to be tortured!!!
IM MORE Merciful then my God so I therefore dont worship him anymore.
Enigma, when it all boils down to it, and you have to make a decision, do you think these accounts (no matter what spin you put on it).really have any basis of fact or that its all ancient myth and stories told for reasons which are totally irrelevant for our modern enlightened times.
Life now for us all can be precious and fulfilling and hard enough dealing with the down sides without clouding our brains with non....sense!
In my humble opinion of course.
Thanks I stopped believing these myths several years ago and every day I find it harder to think I ever believed them. I mean did adam and eve in their short perspective know a day was supposed to be a thousand years. How do you explain death if you have never seen it before? I think according to the bible the first dead thing mentioned was Ables burnt offering. Apparently the god who hates death loves the smell of burning flesh. And the first human to die was not adam or eve but Able. So god punishes Cain by protecting him.
So the Watchtower says death is the result of sin. What is sin? Is it something only earthly beings can do?
It was joke-hova that sinned--trying to enslave the human race in the first place. Trying to enslave the human race, that is, and then defining "sin" as trying to be free. Satan never sinned against us.
Does god have free will? Most Christians would say yes.
Can god sin or do bad? Most Christians would say no.
if we are made in gods image then why can't we have free will but not be capable of sin?
The thought that I believed this is crazy... So swords hadn't been invented in Eden, but the bible says a flaming sword blocked the way to the garden. If that is a symbolic sword then what else is not literal? Sadly JWs would shun you for asking that question.
enigma asked- So the Watchtower says death is the result of sin. What is sin? Is it something only earthly beings can do?
Sin is broadly defined as any action (or even thought, since the Bible defines some thoughts as sinful, merely by thinking of contemplating sinful acts) which is contrary to God's expressed Divine will.
Satan is the epitome of a sinful spirit being, but the sin = death scripture applies to mortal humans: that was ancient men's way of explaining why all humans and animals eventually die.
adamah, just for the sake of getting the (false) story right.
Satan is an immortal being ? was not the only one that has (received) immortality? also,
enigma, wether A&E ate of the tree of life is immaterial, since it was the SUBSEQUENT or continued eating that the twirling sword inhibited. walking into the rotating blade was the instant death promised.
It is a gordian knot this knotty problem Knots in the trees of Knowledge &Life. we like clear lumber.
how to untie the gordian knot? use the blade, twirling or (k)not.
