Where there OS (earthly hopers) in the first century congregations?

by prologos 8 Replies latest jw friends

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  prologos

  caveat: wt writers are wrong with their 'Other Sheep' interpretation, (it's the Gentiles), or the partaker count, but to show where these mistakes lead:

  They admit now that the OS did not appear in 1935, when the ' SEALING, anointing' was supposed have stopped, -- but did not. ok, so

  when will the 'anointeds' sealing' stop? in the GT. So,--When did it start? with the death of Stephen? but:

  The 'ANOINTED' are sealed OUT OF the 12 tribes, which are the 'EARTHLY class' according to wt writers. therefore:

  There must have been Christians, PARTAKERS, (according to wt doctrine) that were not of the potentially sealed 144 000. ergo:

  most of the partakers during the millenia were of the wt earthly class. Hence,

  There were always closet 'EARTHLY OS' among the (true wt) Christians. therefore

  wt writers' contention that ALL early Christians were of the 'sealed, anointed' 144 k is contradicted by their own doctrines.

  Is there any truth or logic in this?

  wt is not about doctrinal truth.
• 

  Phizzy

  A small number of the original Christians were natural Jews, especially those in the Jerusalem Congregation. Depending on which Jewish sect they came out of, some may have had a heavenly hope, but many had a very earthly hope that Messiah would restore the Davidic kingdom.

  Paul's Gentile followers more than likely expected to go to heaven, it is what he wrote about, and preached no doubt. Those Gentiles soon outnumbered the Jewish Christians, who all but disappeared after the Temple destruction of 70 C.E.

  But I think it is difficult to know how many Christians thought of "Paradise" as Earthly or Heavenly. It is doubtful that less than 144,000 expected to go to Heaven, so it knocks the GB's claim to fame, surely.
• 

  sir82

  They admit now that the OS did not appear in 1935

  They do? Where is it printed? I've never seen them rescind this.
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  prologos

  WT writers were wrong in inventing the OS idea in the 1930s. was my original point. and:

  sir82, thank you for pointing my above wrong statement out. what I meant,(and could not correct it in 30 minutes) was that the appearance of the 'Other sheep class' was tied to the rise of the partakers beyond practical limits in the early 30s. The non-partaking-not-anointed OS group was then invented.

  Now this clear time line,1935 of the appearence of the OS is now repudiated. Also, wt writers have said that "--God would give the heavenly calling to someone whose faith was exemplary in serving--" jan 15 1998 page 20; $ 10 understood to be as a ['Jonadab' OS.]

  Of the billion partakers over the centuries surely some would qualify for the 'wt earthly resurrection', outside the small 144 k heavenly flock. Since the anointed are 'sealed OUTOF' that reservoir, ON MERIT, the OS as a class existed since pentecost INSIDE the congregation and as

  Phizzy pointed out, the majority JEWISH hope was earthly.

  Even at the memorial Jesus served the wine&bread to earthly hopers, before the ascention (Acts 1), the 'earthly kingdom' hope persisted.

  There was always one flock in the Christian congregation, as it is, given the shaky foundation of it all.
• 

  designs

  Are you sure, can any follower of the NT be sure of anything doctrinally.

  There is not even consensus on what happens parktaking of communion.
• 

  Crazyguy

  I'm thinking that John in his vision was describing the Christians Jews at the writing of Revelations around 41-61 bce and thats who the 144k represent.
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  prologos

  Crazyguy, designs, your observations&questions are valid. My comment was strictly based on a look at INTERNAL WT doctrines, using THEIR definitions of these times and entities.

  wt has the 'anointed' coming out of the general JW population of worshippers, (the jews earlier, OS now). it follows that

  The TWO TIER wt system existed since pentecost, because the rulers with Christ are the martyrs, like Stephen, who sealed his heavenly destiny with his life's sacrifice. surely. That means that

  the WT writer's idea, that the Bible was written only for the 'anointed'; - Jesus mediatorship is only for 'the anointed' is WRONG, there must have always been 'closet' OS, even a majority, present.

  Whether it has anything to do with reality outside wt land is another matter entirely.
• 

  Bobcat

  Just to throw something into the mix -

  Revelation chapter 7 seems to be an interlude, as it were, that answers two questions raised in chapter six:

  • (Revelation 6:9-11) 9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.

  • (Revelation 6:15-17) . . .And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

  Revelation 7:1-8 answers the first question. Whether the number proves to be literal is open tio question. Either way, it has symbolism written all over it (12 apostles x 12 tribes x 1000). So, plausibly, it could be both. They show up again in Revelation 14 'standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion,' being called "firstfruits," and having a unique "song" ('story to tell'?) that no one else knows.

  Also, the ones crying out for justice in 6:10 seem to have no sense of how far along the gathering of the "144,000" is. So WT's (or anyone elses) attempt to tabulate when these will be finally gathered would seem to be futile. (Which would also seperate the "144,000" idea from partaking at the Lord's Evening Meal. That was a plain command - "keep doing this." The gathering of the "144,000" would be basically unknowable. Unknowable as to whether the number was a symbolic and/or literal one. And unknowable as to when it was finished.

  The great crowd of Revelation 7:9-17 is an answer to the second question - 'Who is able to stand during the day of wrath?'

  • (Revelation 7:13, 14) . . .And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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  designs

  The conflict presented in the NY about where eternity is spent is conflicted so expecting any religion that follows it to come to a singular unified belief on the subject is tough. Lutherans believe its "heaven only', Presybertians believe heaven is temporary and the faithful return to this earth with Jesus and all live here for eternity.

  The other curiosity is Jews believed in the return to Gan Eden at the time of Jesus yet Jesus never discusses it. Jesus never has serious discussions with any Rabbis for that matter.

  The whole point about JWs have this "mediator" teaching wrong seems silly since the 1500 denominations of Christianity have very opposing views on nearly every doctrine and ritual. Take a look at just the differing views of Communion and what the bread and wine are.

  Making stuff up and making personal interpretations is what christianity has been about for the past 1900 years.