The Apostate Paul

by Valis 6 Replies latest jw friends

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  Valis

  I've recently come accross 2nd Corinthians 12:2 where Paul talks about the "Third Heaven". Did he make this up in an attempt to call other versions of the world false prophecy, or did he somehow know he was in a place called the third heaven where he talked to dog? He admits only dog knows ,so where did he come up w/the third heaven concept? If it wasn't inspired writing then he was in fact bearing false witness, creating/inserting a man made concept, thus becoming a false prophet himself? Thanks for any help on this strange/insane topic. As well, is there a JW stance on the levels of heaven? Have lost that memory for some reason.....

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
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  Carmel

  I'm not sure but I seem to recall that at the time of Jesus' death he ascended to the "fourth heaven". Was that from the bible or Quran?

  carmel
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  Satanus

  Paul was likely lost, without a map, so he just said something to impress the real apostles. They all were with jesus, but they never went to any heavens. Paul was attempting to establish credibility.

  SS
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  JosephMalik

  District Overseer,

  These passages of Paul simply reaffirmed his authority as an Apostle of Christ to the Corinthians that he was correcting. As one of the 12 chosen by our Lord he did have the authority over them that he was now exercising in his letters.

  2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

  This third heaven is nothing more than the authority that will be exercised over man during the future kingdom or Paradise that Paul was privileged to see. The words heaven and God are interchangeable for authority and do not point to identity by themselves. This authority or heaven of the future will exist in the Paradise into which Paul was projected. Up until then we had the Jewish age under Law, and then the Christian age under Grace. The Kingdom will be the third age of man under new a new heaven or under new authority living in a Kingdom under Christ.

  4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

  During such a time Paul was privileged to information that cannot be revealed at this time, but Paul had a glimpse into this new world and could rightly prepare the Corinthians for this hoped for Paradise. Yet, the weakness that Paul had with his eyes and in his struggles served as a balance that kept Paul from abusing his position as an Apostle in the faith.

  9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. . . . 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

  Joseph
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  seedy3

  Paul was the one of the apostles that was a free thinker, he really was not following the same path as most of the other so called "Christians" of the time. It is thought that he may not have even felt that Jesus was the son of God, much less god himself. The Gospel accreted to the Heritic Marcion, called the "Gospel of the Lord" is thought to have been maybe written by Pual himself. Marcion was a follower of Paul's as was Luke. The "Gospel fo The Lord" is almost word for word the book of Luke in many places, but is consider hertical becasue it does not follow the line of Jesus being part of the Trinity, Godhead.

  If your interested there is a websight based on Marcion, and his known history and writings.
  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3827/Library.html

  Seedy
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  Valis

  During such a time Paul was privileged to information that cannot be revealed at this time

  
  That sounds familiar....

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
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  AGuest

  Dear Valis... peace to you!

  And at risk of chagrining dear JMalik, I wish to say that the man Paul knew was the Apostle John, and that the 'third' heaven is the Courtyard of the Priests in my Father's 'temple' compound. The Most Holy is the 'first' heaven... or holy of holies; the Holy is the 'second' heaven... and so on and so on, as one draws farther away from the Most Holy.

  There is:

  1. The 'inner' Courtyard of the priests (3rd)
  2. The 'outer' Courtyard of the priests (4th)
  3. The Court of Israel (5th)
  4. The Court of Women (6th)
  5. The Court of Gentiles (nations) (7th)

  Note, there are even more 'heavens', for this is the spirit realm: there are territories and principalities, etc., formerly ruled by spirits.

  And 'heaven' or 'the heavens' (excluding that which is in the physical world, the atmosphere, sky, where birds and planes fly), is simply the spirit realm, which is not reachable by traveling distance, but being granted 'entry' by God, through Christ (John 10:7; 14:6). One must come to be 'in spirit' to gain entry, for flesh and blood cannot enter. (John 4:4)

  However, one does not actually 'go' anywhere, until such time as one 'ascends', as did my Lord and as will my brothers upon his return. And at that time one simply is resurrected a spirit... or puts off flesh and is changed to become a spirit... so that such one can 'enter' completely. In this way, that which is partial, which we see 'partially' is 'done away with'... because 'that which is complete'... will have arrived.

  I hope this helps, and I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ