144,000 in Revelation May not be Referring to Individuals at all!

by objectivetruth 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    I'm testing a Theory.. So many people discuss whether or not 144,000 is a literal number.. I want to discuss, what if 144,000 is not a number of Individuals, rather a number of Groups of People.

    While there is no unanimous acceptance or truth, some believe that The Book if Revelation was written in Hebrew originally. My theory is based in this possibility. " The Language of the Book of Revelation
    To anyone who knows the Greek language, it is immediately clear that the author of the book of Revelation had not mastered idiomatic Greek of his day. Rather, his native language was Hebrew. This has led some scholars to argue that the book of Revelation was originally written in Hebrew, and later translated into Greek. 3 Others have contended that its original language was Aramaic, which was later translated into Greek. 4 However, neither of these views has gained widespread acceptance among scholars, because neither accounts for all the data presented in the book itself. Charles is undoubtedly correct when he states: “while he [the author of the book of Revelation] writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew.” 5 Thus, meanings of words, tenses, cases, and syntactical constructions which do not make sense in the Greek of the book of Revelation, make excellent sense when the Hebrew behind them is understood." - http://www.studyjesus.com/Religion_Library/Johannine_Studies/15_O_T_Revelation.htm

    There is much confusion over the word "eleph" 1,000 vs Clan (Family)

    Isaiah 60:22 - ""The smallest one will become a clan, And the least one a mighty nation. I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time." - ESV
    Isaiah 60:22 - "A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time." - KJV The difference comes from the confusion of the Translation of a form of Eleph "The oxen likewise and the young asses that till the ground shall eat savory provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fork." (ASV, Isaiah 30:24) In the verse above is the Hebrew noun אלף (eleph, Strong's #504) meaniing is oxen. Oxen are the largest of the Ancient Hebrews' livestock and were most frequently used for plowing the fields, usually in pairs. An older ox would be yoked to a younger one in order for the older one to teach the younger through association. This same noun is also found in Judges 6:15 where it is translated as "family." In a family, the children learn from the parents, in the same manner as the oxen, through association.

    As oxen are "very large" animals, the word אלף (eleph) is also used for a "thousand," a "very large" number. (While this is the same word discussed previously, Strong's dictionary has assigned this word the number 505 when used for a "thousand.") From this aspect of the noun, a second verb is formed. Normaly, Hebrew nouns are derived out of verbs, however on occasion, a verb is derived out of a noun, this verb is called a demonstrative verb. The demonstrative verb formed out of אלף (eleph) is אלף (A.L.Ph, Strong's #503) meaning to "give a thousand."

    In summary, the Hebrew word אלף can be;

    1. 1. A verb meaning to learn by association.
    2. 2. A noun meaning oxen, a large beast, which learns through association.
    3. 3. A noun meaning family, through the idea of association.
    4. 4. A noun meaning a thousand, a large number.
    5. 5. A verb meaning to give a thousand.

    "If bible translators can misinterptet 'lp as "thousand" when "clan" is intended there is clearly scope for a scribe copying an early Hebrew text to interpret 'lp as "thousand"when "troop" was intended. http://kiel0.home.xs4all.nl/ColinHumphreysNumbers1.pdf

    Regarding the number 144,000 in Revelation, The seemingly obvious view is that by Multiplying 12 by 1,000 you reach 144,000 - Each 12 Represents one of the 12 Tribes of old Testament Israel, however as seen above the Old Testament uses the word eleph in a Variety of Ways. As a number eleph could designate 144 Groups of 1,000 People, the Word can also Designate a Military unit such as a Brigade or Battalion.

    Eleph COULD also Represent the Administrative divisions of each Tribe! Something like States with in a Country (Clan within a Tribe).

    This Method of Separation can be seen at Exodus 18:21 - " Moreover, look for able men from all the people, men who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe, and place such men over the people as chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens." A more detailed Example of this organization can be seen is Numbers 26 http://biblehub.com/esv/numbers/26.htm

    Since the Nation of Israel originated from a Single Family (Genesis 49:1-28) such Administrations can also Represent a Family Tree, each of the Tribes can be broken down into Sub tribes,Clans and Families.

    This could mean that the eleph does not represent 144,000 People, rather 144 Heads of Households. each ruling a clan numbered in four figures.. Regardless of the Exact meaning, I feel that it is unwise to be Dogmatic about 144,000 being a Literal number! The 144,000 Represents everyone who has ever been faithful to God and His son, through out History.

    Imagine this Translation :

    Revelation 7:4 - "

    4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144 Clans, + sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: +

    5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,Clans sealed;

    out of the tribe of Reu′ben 12,Clans;

    out of the tribe of Gad 12,Clans;.... etc

    Revelation 14:1 - " Then I saw, and look! the Lamb + standing on Mount Zion, + and with him 144 Clans + who have his name and the name of his Father + written on their foreheads.

    14:3 - " And they are singing what seems to be a new song + before the throne and before the four living creatures + and the elders, + and no one was able to master that song except these 144 Clans who have been bought from the earth.

    = )

  • prologos
    prologos

    objectivetruth, we know you want a scholarly answer, but I could not pass this up:

    you said "--the 1444 000" -- refers to GROUPS of people--" of course, that is what

    WT teaches: The present, remaining of the 144 000 are at least 3 [not 12] GROUPS of people in an overlapping generation.

    I see it not as a word-choice-translation issue, but confirm these are

    12 GROUPS of people, with distinct and unique characters, experiences, not GENETICALLY-based tribes, families.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    I remember reading the verses as a child and saw the obvious math, twelve representatives iof the twelve tribes = 144

    With emphasis 144,000 was said, just like jesus and his forgiving people 77 times, it is an issue of poetic license from the writer, along with the dragons and wild beasts with several heads and horns and lakes of fire etc etc etc...

    Just my uninformed, ignorant opinion, but it seemed obvious as a kid, knowing the times tables.... 12x12 = 144

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    prologos - I think we feel the same way..

    The Watchtower teaches that the 144,000 are a Literal 144,000 Individual Human Beings.

  • quellycatface
    quellycatface

    God knows........

  • westiebilly11
    westiebilly11

    why is it that anything that purports to be The Truth or a book inspired by god is wrapped up in theories and hidden meanings...surely if god wanted man to know his message etc it would be laid out simply and clearly without risk of double meanings..144,000 could be anything if stared at long enough....it makes less and less sense to me the older I get....smoke and mirrors..

  • villagegirl
    villagegirl

    Agggghhhhhhh - people, every single number in Revelation is SYMBOLIC

    Examples: Is 666 literal ?? Are you looking for people with 666

    on their foreheads ? Good luck with that.

    Who exactly ARE the 7 spirits of God ?

    Does the Lamb really have 7 horns ?

    Why is the number 3 used eleven times ?

    1260 days ? Lets not even go there, since the WT has

    screwed this "explanation" up so many times its pathetic.

    12X12 = 144 is referencing 12 tribes of Israel ? Symbolic of ...???

    the 144,000 is 12 X 12 tribes and they are standing in the same place

    the "great crowd" are which is "before the throne"

    Its not about two hopes, its not about anything literal , its symbolic of

    some inexplicable mysteries. We are all part of the body of Christ and

    all should partake of the wine and the bread. Thats the only message

    Jesus had when he instituted the remembering of him. Jesus did

    not set up two classes of Christians, that was the Watchtower and shame on them

    for denying people access to Jesus Christ as their only mediator.

    going to heaven versus living on earth.

  • prologos
    prologos

    even that bread&wine partaking for all is a communion exercise, for the talking snake, the fall, the sin & breadpan dimple , redemption all are not real?

  • kaik
    kaik

    WT teaches that 144,000 is literal since the time of Russell. Russell also predicted/calculated that the great crowd will be 20,736,000,000 (144k x 144k) individuals.

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