The ultimate outcome of the humorous debacle (sorry about the length - I've cropped wherever possible) reproduced below was that:
Jason not only left the jWs but allegedly tape-recorded his JC hearing and is an anti-.
Mark's faith was further weakened, and he became a full-blown apostate and took his family with him; if he believes in any god, he's a good actor.
JW Richard richmac, thoroughly beaten, ran away and gave up proselytising on the net. One can speculate he saw the light, as while at his last sighting he was still religious, he was no longer employing the Pure Language of the Truth that Leads to Everlasting Life.
And One Brow not only gave up his wicked cult apologia but progressed to becoming a full-blown atheist, and is findable on the web today
Executive Summary: The hard "WHACK!" can work. It shows how even the most devious, back-tracking, weasel-wording, manipulative, deceptive, "Theocratic War Strategy"-equipped jW 'Super-Elder' (authorised to do battle on the internet) can be busted, defeated, made a fool of and driven away, with his mangy theocratic tail between his legs and large lumps taken off his posterior by panthera pardus, and observers begin to understand the truth about "the truth".
Here is the Usenet exchange, but one battle in a long war which involved many hundreds of jWs and many hundreds of apologists.
Prominent Bethelite ("PB") outnumbered the lot of them, apparently.
.
HERE'S HOW THIS SKIRMISH BEGAN IN NEWS:ALT.RELIGION.JEHOVAHS-WITN:
------
One month ago, in <[email protected]>, JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
richmac [email withheld] wrote...
>If one's religion is teaching you to hate others, then its
>time to find a new religion.
The "its" should read "it's", but then JWs were never very hot on
education... But, more significantly, this self-righteous,
holier-than-thou richmac is himself a prominent member of Jehovah's
Witnesses, ever busy spreading their numerous disgusting abominations
across the Internet. When he wrote the (in themselves totally sensible)
words above, he of course was referring to non-JW religions (all Satanic,
according to the Jehovah's Witlesses). It would not even occur to the
brainwashed nincompoop that this OWN religion was the MOST guilty of this
perversion.
I checked to see what *HIS* religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) had to say
about hatred in their own Official Publication ('The Watchtower' - a new
Bible chapter twice a month) - what is written there has the force of
scriptural doctrine to Witnesses, who face expulsion and lifelong shunning
if they disobey even the tiniest decree within it. You'll be amazed at
what I found... ;-)
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TEACH YOU TO *HATE* *PEOPLE*
"Haters of God and His people ARE TO BE HATED .. WE MUST HATE in the
truest sense,
which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as
loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest. Surely any haters of God are not fit
to live on His beautiful earth .. What do you do with anything loathsome
or repugnant that you detest and abhor?" {The Watchtower October 1, 1952
pp 596-9}
"When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right,
when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his
make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian MUST HATE THE
PERSON with whom the badness is inseparably linked.. Jesus did not mean
for us to love the hardened enemies of Jehovah" {The Watchtower July 15,
1961 p 420}
"You have seen the benefit of godly love, but DO YOU KNOW HW TO HATE?..
These very strong words are an expression of godly hate, and you too must
have this quality to be pleasing to God. Hate causes a feeling of disgust
to well up inside you. You loathe, abhor, despise the object of your
hatred" {The Watchtower July 15, 1974 p 442}
"More than that, WE WANT TO HATE THOSE who willfully show themselves
haters of Jehovah, haters of what is good" {The Watchtower June 15, 1980 p
8}
"Apostasy is, in reality, a rebellion against Jehovah. Some apostates
profess to know and serve God, but they reject teachings or requirements
set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible, but they reject
Jehovah's organization and actively try to hinder its work. When they
deliberately choose such badness after knowing what is right, when the bad
becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of their makeup, then
A CHRISTIAN MUST HATE (in the Biblical sense of the word) those who have
inseparably attached themselves to the badness." {The Watchtower October
1, 1993 19}
[Interpretative notes: References to God's people, Jehovah's organization
etc. are clearly (from context) meaning Jehovah's Witnesses - they refer
to themselves this way hundreds of times in their literature (follow my
sig references for many examples). An apostate is someone like myself, who
exposes their endless lies and follies. Capitalization is by me]
Now, remember what the hypocritical "richmac" was preaching last month:
>If one's religion is teaching you to hate others, then its
>time to find a new religion.
>Richard
>[EMAIL WITHHELD]
Right... :-)
It is totally proven that the Jehovah's Witnesses teach you to hate
others. FIVE QUOTATIONS. Which one will this coward, cheat or fool seek
to deny?
So, has the shameful hypocrite [RICHMAC] repented and QUIT the
Jehovah's Witnesses, or is he still gutlessly skulking around?
: If you have questions concerning the beliefs of
: Jehovah's Witnesses, do visit www.freeminds.org
And that is excellent advice indeed! (lol)
Love
Prominent Bethelite.
----------------------------------------------
.
.
NOW WE SKIP OVER DOZENS OF POSTS, and come to:
Jehovah's Witless "Jason" [EMAIL WITHHELD] wrote:
Jehovah's Witness HYPOCRITE richmac's HATE TEACHINGS
----------------------------------------------------
>Mark [EMAIL WITHHELD] wrote in message
>
>> The way [richmac] rebuked the PB for baiting him left me in
>>a state a awe! [..] He did it in a way that none of
>> those other methods can even compare. Like it was right out of
>> the Bible or something.
LOL!
>I missed this post, I might be interested in reading it. Do you recall
>the subject line at all?
A terrific example of Braindead JW-revisionism here!
And how pathetically eager to clasp or grasp at any evidence someone got
the better of me... Really, sad. Your inferiority complex shows so clearly
here, JW Jason.
Now, reality.... that "disgusting thing" for Jehovah's Witnesses... ;-)
What actually happened is that the Jehovah's Witness CHEAT and HYPOCRITE
[RICHMAC] got such a whupping that he disappeared from Usenet for
quite a while after the exposure....
LOL!
Right - let us revisit the matter!
BASIC POINT: The Jehovah's Witnesses INCREDIBLY teach you that to HATE
PEOPLE is not only OK, it is God's commandment!
Read on how that got JW richmac into hot water, the little cheating
hypocrite (and then LIAR) that he is.
Jehovah's Witness Richard <[RICHMAC]> wrote in August...
>Jehovah's Witnesses is the place to be to learn about God and his
>purposes.
>Any one that would tell you that I thought otherwise would
>be telling you a falsehood, making himself a liar and unworthy of
>your consideration.
richmac, to call YOURSELF a liar: (a) is unwise; (b) is probably being
overly harsh - you are more probably just brain-washed and stupid; (c)
creates a logical contradiction of sorts (is the liar telling the truth
when he says he does not tell the truth?).
So, I do not call you a liar. Just BADLY misled, and misleading others.
Blindly stumbling along doing the work of Satan, the real Head of the
Watchtower Society. WHICH WORK SHOULD *STOP* as you appear to be a good
person, if but a child in terms of reasoning or theological comprehension.
I keep the logic simple, as the familiarity of some readers/participants
with the Bible may well be less than optimal.
(a) On August 5 in <[email protected]>
"[RICHMAC]" wrote...
>If one's religion is teaching you to hate others, then its
>time to find a new religion.
Sounds good advice to me! :-)
Does he know what his own filthy CULT teaches, though? ;-)
(b) I replied immediately with this quote from HIS CULT's official
litterichah (which has the force of the Bible - at least - for JWs):-
[[SNIP ON MATERIAL ALREADY REPRODUCED ABOVE]]
So I stated: "Great news, Richard! I trust you are by now searching for
a religion to replace the jehovah's Witnesses."
NOW COMPARE:
---------------------------------------------------
Words of a Committed JW: "If one's religion is teaching you to hate
others, then its time to find a new religion."
Official Jehovah's Witnesses' Doctrine: 'Haters of Jehovah's Witnesses are
to be HATED'
Prominent Bethelite's Comment: LOL!
---------------------------------------------------
Now, rather unsurprisingly, only JWs do not see the OBVIOUS contradiction!
A DENIAL arrives post-haste from the "Committed JW"! As predicted. :-)
Far worse, the WTBTS goes 100% against the SPECIFIC teachings of Jesus:-
---------------------------------------------------
At Matt. 5:44 Jesus says: "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless
them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which spitefully use you, and persecute you."
At Luke 6:27 (Echoed in 35) Jesus says "But I say unto you which hear,
Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." etc.
BUT THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES teach: Haters of Jehovah's Witnesses are to be
HATED.
Prominent Bethelite's Comment: LOL!
---------------------------------------------------
The natural assumption by almost 99.9% (which happens to be the percentage
of non-JWs in the world) is along the lines of "JWs are FOOLS or LIARS if
they cannot see the hypocrisy!.. why do they not just admit the Watchtower
was WRONG?"
I do not (yet?) say "They are FOOLS or LIARS if they cannot see the
hypocrisy!" (and explore a third possibility at the end - FEAR is the
motive they cannot admit the truth.
Let us try to put ourself into the mind of a SINCERE JW (which I believe
richmac to be). Remember, JWs have been brain-washed to JUMP THROUGH EYES
OF NEEDLES (!) BACKWARDS and BLINDFOLDED with ONE LEG tied-back, in order
to make sense of the Official Witch-Kookery from Brooklyn (from where God
rules by proxy - it used to be from the star Alcyone per the JWs fifty
years ago)... ;-)
<[RICHMAC]>, doubtless reflecting on his lack of caution in
letting the words slip in the first place (no criticism - followers of the
WTBTS have for 120 years had to walk a tightrope, BECAUSE THEIR BELIEFS
ARE DEFECTIVE and SELF-CONTRADICTORY), has offered a "defense".
Naturally, it is very weak, and most of it is a smokescreen that answers
accusations that HAVE NOT BEEN MADE (wise in the circumstances - I ignore
these). Again no criticism of richmac, who is DEFENDING the INDEFENSIBLE.
Unwise career move for an "attorney" (even a REAL attorney), though. I
ignore richmac's noise saying that JWs never said they would physically
act to harm others (I never accused them of this - and actually said they
did NOT - why did he waste time mentioning it?), vengeance is from God
(sure, so?), love is His dominant quality (sure, so?), JWs want to bring
the good news (so you say, so?), avoid those who fight against (their) God
(so?) and so on. All IRRELEVANT to this CHARGE as I did not suggest
otherwise. SNIP. The remainder is all that is at all pertinent to the
charge against Jehovah's Witnesses that I made - that they teach followers
to HATE some people:-
Now we demolish richmac's IDIOTIC attempts to defend the indefensible ...
quite funny, actually.
RICHMAC DEFENSE 1
>we are taught to hate what Jehovah hates, to hate what is bad. (Ps 11:5;
>Ps 97:10; Pr 6:16)
PROMINENT BETHELITE'S REFUTATION OF DEFENSE 1 - PART 1
WHY smokescreen things by attempting to confuse HATING THE **SIN** with
HATING THE **SINNER**? LOL!
The WT quote you are attempting to defend is about JWs being told to HATE
THE SINNER.
You write about hating what is "BAD" being justified - I never argued
otherwise. The Watchtower (Oct 1 1952 596-604) quoted states HATERS of
Jehovah's Witnesses are to be HATED - i.e. the SINNER is TO BE HATED, so
your defense as stated is no defense at all. Shame!
PROMINENT BETHELITE'S REFUTATION OF DEFENSE 1 - PART 2
Even more important, it is IDIOTIC to take a few psalms and proverbs, each
a part of 'The Ketuvim', and use it to OVER-RULE the SPECIFIC teachings
(which clarify God's word, and are part of the new covenant between God
and man) of LORD JESUS CHRIST himself!
At Matt. 5:44, LORD JESUS CHRIST says: "But I say unto you, love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."
At Luke 6:27 (etc.), LORD JESUS CHRIST says "But I say unto you which
hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." etc.
JESUS did not MAKE ANY EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CLEARLY STATED RULE.
How then DARES the Watchtower to qualify it (thereby WHOLLY PERVERTING its
meaning)? Shame!
RICHMAC DEFENSE 2
>God ballances his love with other qualities including justified hatred
>of what is bad and evil. Our coming to understand this kind of hatred
>is a protection in that we never what to share in the sins of those who
>fight against the true God.
PROMINENT BETHELITE'S REFUTATION OF DEFENSE 2
Even accepting the first premise above...
JWs - who have the bare-faced audacity to claim ALL OTHER RELIGIONS are
Satanic, the SHAMELESS PRESUMPTUOUSNESS to declare they are GOD'S ONLY
representatives on Earth, and all sorts of other abominable perversions of
truth, are NOW
PRESUMING to have the RIGHT to DO just AS GOD DOES!
LOL!
The Hatred God may or may not feel is NO justification for mere humans to
do the same. Read that till you understand it. The Hatred God may or may
not feel is NO justification for mere humans to do the same.
Note the words "Our coming to understand" - coming to understand through
the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. No Bible verse(s) is, or can
be, quoted to specifically support this.
DO NOT PRESUME IN YOUR ENDLESS AUDACITY TO TAKE UPON YOUR MOST UNWORTHY
SHOULDERS THE MANTLE OF GOD.
JWs are not God - even their autocratic bosses the Governing Body of the
Watchtower Bible & Tract Society have not yet actually claimed to be God
(though the words of their publications is given as much or more weight
than scripture). They even ADVISED God when to destroy the wicked world
("..an appropriate time for God to act")
Shame!
RICHMAC DEFENSE 3
>Even then, there is a time to love and a time to hate.
PROMINENT BETHELITE'S REFUTATION OF DEFENSE 3
JESUS specifically taught there is NO time to hate PEOPLE, which is what
the Watchtower was COMMENDING - HATING PEOPLE. Stop attempting that
smokescreen, you will not be permitted to get away with it. We are
talking HATING PEOPLE.
At Matt. 5:44, LORD JESUS CHRIST says: "But I say unto you, love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."
At Luke 6:27 (etc.), LORD JESUS CHRIST says "But I say unto you which
hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." etc.
SO WHAT IS THE TIME TO HATE PEOPLE that you allege exists ("there is a
time to love and a time to hate [people]"?
Or you are making Jesus (Archangel Michael to you, still?) out to be
**WRONG**?
Or can you not follow a simple argument?
Again, the attempted smokescreen of confusion between hating "what is
evil" (i.e., an intangible thing, an idea, a teaching, a way of life, a
belief) and hating **PEOPLE**. The Watchtower quoted CLEARLY TAUGHT
hating PEOPLE is commendable. Shame.
So, the "defense" is UTTERLY CONFOUNDED. Wriggle as much as you like -
please do, I have much more ammunition ON THIS ISSUE ALONE, this for me is
just round 1! ;-)
So, Richmac, please read the Bible with more care, comprehension and
understanding - and not just half a line at a time as you are trained to
do by the JWs, and stop using it to pervert God's word. Shame on you and
FAR MORE SHAME ON THOSE WHO HAVE BRAIN-WASHED YOU!
Now, why do I think that (apparently at other times, rational) ones like
Richmac attempt to justify the CLEARLY UNJUSTIFIABLE?
---------------------------------------------------
Watchtower October 1, 1952 pages 596-604:-
"Haters of God and [Jehovah's Witnesses] are to be hated .. We must hate
in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion,
to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest. Surely any haters of
God are not fit to live on His beautiful earth.."
---------------------------------------------------
WHY DOES HE NOT JUST ADMIT THE WATCHTOWER IS WRONG - JUST IN THIS CASE, AT
LEAST? (Hundreds more examples of WTBTS folly in The List referenced in
my sig). Sure, JWs are brainwashed, spoon-fed garbage from Brooklyn,
taught that independent thinking leads to apostasy, that unsupervised or
unassisted by JW-literature reading of the Bible is bad for you, and so
on. But there is a MORE sinister reason too.
IF a JW is shown to be openly questioning/challenging/denying a current
WT-dictum (no matter that they keep reversing themselves - readThe List
below for dozens of examples!), the hapless JW is not just liable BUT MOST
LIKELY to be up before a JW Inquisitorial Religious Court (forget justice
- no defense lawyer allowed, no Court record or transcript, prosecutors
are judges), thrown out and JWs (which for committed JWs will include all
or most of their friends, often much or all of their family) are commanded
to UTTERLY SHUN THEM. Fear is such a deterrent - how well I know this.
So I do not condemn Richmac. Or hate him. Just his WICKED JW TEACHINGS
(how blind he is to their wickedness!).
-----------------------------------------------------
He must hate me: he is COMMANDED to by WT10/1/52:596
I prefer Jesus to Brooklyn, and follow Matthew 5: 44
Believe me, it is a HUGE difference. Sad!
-----------------------------------------------------
Richmac <[RICHMAC]> wrote...
>If one's religion is teaching you to hate others, then its
>time to find a new religion.
IT IS TIME TO FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE, RICHMAC - OR BE BRANDED A
*HYPOCRITE*.
No wonder JWs are strongly advised against entering into debate on the
Internet! LOL!
Tim, extracts from this exchange are for your book. ;-))
But hopefully, some Fool will be so ill-advised as to try to further
defend the INDEFENSIBLE COUNSEL OF THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, who teach that
TO HATE PEOPLE is COMMENDABLE (and that ALL other Cults Religions Faiths
and belief Systems are Satanic). Then we can have more...
: If you have questions concerning the beliefs of
: Jehovah's Witnesses, do visit www.freeminds.org
And that is excellent advice indeed!
(a) On August 5 in <[email protected]>
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS "[RICHMAC]" wrote...
>If one's religion is teaching you to hate others, then its
>time to find a new religion.
vs
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES' OWN Watchtower October 1, 1952 pages 596-604:-
"Haters of God and His people are to be hated, but this does not mean
that we will take any opportunity of bringing physical hurt to them in a
spirit of malice or spite [*], for both malice and spite belong to the
Devil, whereas pure hatred does not.. We must hate in the truest sense,
which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as
loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest. Surely any haters of God are not fit
to live on His beautiful earth"
And all his subsequent defenses were UTTERLY DEMOLISHED by me. richmac
MADE **NO** response to the post I have substantially reproduced above - he
just slunk away till he thought it had been forgotten. Wow, Jason & Gonzo
- he is going to "LOVE" (and we know what those quote marks show) you for
reminding me of the fiasco...
The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses Cult
is a CUNNING CONTRIVANCE, a FRAUD, a DIRTY LIE,
a CRUEL HOAX, a SATANIC TRICK, a SCAM, a WICKED
CHEAT, a SPIRITUAL PORNOGRAPHER and FORNICATOR,
the FOULEST DISEASE masquerading as a religion,
a PARADISE for FILTHY PEDOPHILES, a BLASPHEMOUS
INSULT, an ABOMINATION, a DISGUSTING THING, the
GREAT HARLOT OF BABYLON, an ANTICHRIST, a FALSE
PROPHET, a WOLFISH DECEITFUL WITNESS, a SCANDAL
and a DAMNED OUTRAGE right from start to finish
And it makes many JWs into FILTHY DISGUSTING HYPOCRITES AND LIARS.
Inevitable. One example, [RICHMAC]
And on the third day, God said:
"Let there be div(D)=Pf, div(B)=0, curl(E)=-dB/dt, curl(H)=jf+dD/dt."
And there was light."
Love
Examples of FINE SPIRITUAL FOOD AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME FROM "THE SLAVE":
"We need not here repeat the evidences that the 'seventh trump' began its
sounding in A.D. 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of
trouble" {WT Nov 1880 p1}; "masturbation is no mere innocent pastime but
rather a practice that can lead to homosexual acts" {WT May 15 1970 p315;
also WT Oct 1 1970 p604}; "If heaven were made the receptacle of the
heathen, savages, barbarians, the idiotic, simple, insane and INFANTS, it
would cease to be heaven to a considerable extent, and become a pandemonium
.. billions of ignorant, imbecile and degraded .. never formed characters
[not] fit companions for saints" {WT Oct 15 1896 p245} Fine JW Wisdom!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
THE LIST OF AMAZING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES' CLAIMS, BELIEFS & PREDICTIONS
Prepared by MYSELF may be found at the following websites:-
http://www.freeminds.org/history/part1.htm
[snip for brevity]
It is FULLY IN ACCORDANCE with the teachings of the WATCHTOWER Bible &
Tract Society (WTBTS) for every member of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES to Carefully
Study the LIST mentioned above, which comprises truly fine scriptural food
from its own publications. Remember the WTBTS told you to confirm whether
what was taught by the WTBTS was in harmony with the Bible - and if not,
not to circulate it {WT Mar 1 1894 repr p1629}, to confirm WT teachings
against the Bible {WT May 1 1934 p131}, to invite critical examination of
your faith {WT Aug 15 1950 p263}, that, far from being wrong, it is your
duty to examine religion to see if it is true or false {WT Nov 15 1963
p688}, that you should actively examine your own religion {The Truth That
Leads To Eternal Life 1968 p13, a WTBTS publication}, that you should check
and examine BOTH sides of a matter {Awake! Oct 22 1973 p6}, that your
religion was in no way afraid of being exposed to scrutiny {WT Aug 1 1978
p12}, that you should to be willing to submit everything to scrutiny
{Awake! Aug 22 1984 p22/28}, that you should not have a closed mind {WT Nov
22 1984 p3-4}, that you should actively refer to the older publications {WT
Jun 15 1985 p12}, that all people are encouraged to examine other religions
and with an open mind {WT Apr 1 1991 p17} and that you are encouraged to
exhibit freedom of thought {Awake! Jun 8 1994 p21}. So, please follow this
advice of the WTBTS, and study that LIST very carefully. "You will know the
Truth and the Truth will set you free."(John 8:32). Fine advice indeed!
THE LIST IS PRODUCED IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO A RECENT REQUEST BY THE WTBTS in
{WT Dec 1 1990 p19}, where it quotes {WT Dec 15 1914 p377-8}: "If any one
knows anything better, let him take it. If any of you ever find anything
better, we hope you will tell us." Kindly, Prominent Bethelite has duly
obliged. Having read it, if you find the WTBTS has ever told falsehoods,
follow the WTBTS advice clearly given in {WT Dec 1 1991 p7} "A religion
that teaches lies cannot be true."; if you find the WTBTS has even made one
false prophecy, follow the WTBTS advice clearly given in {WT Feb 1 1992 p3}
"Beware of False Prophets!" - and cut yourself off from these Foul Cheats.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
End extract.
A tiny, tiny example, friends and detritus, of 'How the West was Won".
Stone by flippin' stone...
Coming soon: The besting of the Great (lol!) Greg Stafford by PB. And the multiple humiliations landed on the bloodguilty One Brow.
__
Focus
("P.B." Class)
Note: I'd be careful about accusing me of plagiarism here, O Unclean Ones.