by Pinku 5 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
In one place one person says: ‘Some sins are unforgivable, even after one’s death.’ (Mathew 12:32)
In another place, another person says: “Anyone who has died has been set free from sin, for the wages of sin is death.” (Romans 6:7, 23)
If adherents and apostates can co-exist within the Bible, why not inside an organization?
If adherents and apostates can co-exist within the Bible, why not inside an organization?
??
Just like there are zero homosexuals in Iran and Saudi Arabia, there are zero apostates actually within gOD's organization.
They all apostatized and left, right?
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Focus
("Reminder to summon PB" Class)
I think that Paul was refering to those faithful christians who die, and not of all people. This is my take.
If you simply read the context of Romans 6:23, it becomes pretty apparent that the Watchtower's understanding of it is wrong. It's not physical death that Paul is writing about, it's the death to the old person that one dies when he becomes united to Christ and is "buried" through baptism. One who has experienced such a new birth has been "set free from sin." In the previous verse, Paul writes, "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." Then in the very next verse, he writes, "For one who has died has been set free from sin." It is the crucifixion of the old self with Christ that leads to freedom from sin, not physical death. Paul goes on to elaborate this concept over the next chapter or two. Unfortunately, JWs completely ignore the context of this and many other texts they use to "prove" their doctrines.
If we go to the context, we are going to have more troubles. Chapter separation is not original to the Bible, but is a later development. Hence context seems to begin in what is now known as Chapter 5 where the writer describes the origin of sin and death. Even here the writer is not consistent—Romans 5:12 that says “all those who sinned died” is contradicted in 5:14 that says “those who did not sin also died.” He says sin and death started with Adam and Eve, meaning they sinned and died as a result. If first century Christians sinned, they have to die eternally with no hope of resurrection(Hebrews 10:26 ), even if it is very minor, like trying to take little bit of glory through some minor lie. (Acts 5:1-11) Hence question of figurative death does not arise in the case of First Century Christians.
Besides, sin and death of first century Christians cannot be compared to that of Jesus, because Jesus neither sinned nor died, but was murdered by evil forces external to him—something for which he even prayed not to happen. If his murder was brought out by evil forces for the good of the mankind, that would mean God used evil to bring lasting good—does that not make evil good? Then why die to sinning? See we are going mad!!!
Why all these complications? Because the writer of Romans is a writer of “untruth,” something the writer himself admits in Romans 3:7. Apostate actually means “to stand away from truth.”
Sigh. You really don't understand the concept of context, do you? In Romans 3:7, Paul is not saying that he is writing lies. He is contrasting his own sinfulness (using himself as a representative of all mankind) with the righteousness of God. In verse 4, he said, "Let God be true, though every man a liar." He has spent the first two chapters of the book, first building the case that the Gentiles are sinners, then turning it right back on the Jews, showing that they are sinners and deserving of God's wrath every bit as much as the Gentiles are. At the beginning of chapter 3, he is making the case that the faithlessness of God's chosen people does not negate His faithfulness toward them. He is anticipating the objection that if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God by way of contrast, should we not sin even more so that God is glorified? And why does He judge us if that is the case? Verse 7 is part of his answer. Is Paul a liar? Sure, just like you are and I am. We are all sinners - that is Paul's point. To atomize verse 7 and try to turn it into a confession that Paul is writing untruth is a blatant and disingenuous abuse of the text.
Now, it's true that the chapter divisions were not part of the original text, and the context should be considered without reliance on the chapter and verse designations. However, the people who made the chapter divisions weren't idiots. They recognized where changes in thought occurred in the text and placed the divisions accordingly. I Romans 5, Paul is writing about physical death that resulted from Adam's fall. As chapter 6 begins, Paul starts to talk about 'death to sin.' Clearly, this is something different than the death that results from sin. Dying with Christ is a death to sin in that one gains new life in Christ. The "old man" is put to death and the "new man" is brought to life. This is the death that Paul refers to in verse 7 as setting us free from sin, not physical death.
If you want to attack the Bible, that's up to you, but you could at least attack it on the grounds of what the text actually says. Your practice of isolating a verse and ignoring its context (which you have now done twice so far in this thread) is not an honest or effective way of making your point.
