by berrygerry 8 Replies latest watchtower bible
Question fit for Blondie types.
Happiness book:
"19 One tactic that he has used is by encouraging the view that there is no Devil or Satan. He is like a criminal who spreads the idea that a crime syndicate does not exist, thus lulling persons into a false security."
The Devil wants to present as if there is no Devil.
Who therefore would want to present, after many, many decades to the contrary, that there is no "evil slave?"
Legit question.
Has the Watchtower said there is no evil slave? They are indeed an evil slave themselves, but I suspect they would not deny the existence of an evil slave. They would just point their fingers at someone else.
Hi MG52
A major tipping point for me.
w 2013/7/15
Was Jesus foretelling that there would be an evil slave class in the last days? No. Granted, some individuals have manifested a spirit similar to that of the evil slave described by Jesus. We would call them apostates, whether they were of the anointed or of the “great crowd.” (Rev. 7:9) But such ones do not make up an evil slave class. Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave . His words here are actually a warning directed to the faithful and discreet slave.
RADICAL change from previous teachings.
Yes the new thought meant that ones from the "faithful" slave class could become "evil" if they turned.
Eg: a "doctor" could be a "good" doctor or turn into a "bad" doctor if he started killing patients. It is not as if there was a "good" doctor that was appointed in a hospital, as well as a "bad" doctor that was appointed in the same hospital...
It wasnt that there was TWO classes...a "faithful" and an "evil"
I was talking to Satan just the other day and he said hes really a nice guy just miss understood, who knew.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013533?q=hypothetical&p=par
The 7-15-13 WT states in the box on page 24 that there is no evil slave, that it is just a warning from Jesus to the faithful slave not to become so, basically going on to say that it is only a hypothetical. My question is…are the foolish virgins and the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent also hypothetical??? i.e.….
[3-1-04 WT WHEN DOES JESUS COME?
It would not be reasonable to say, for example, that the rewarding of the faithful slave, the judgment of the foolish virgins, and the judgment of the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent, will take place when Jesus “comes” at the great tribulation. That would imply that many of the anointed will be found unfaithful at that time and will thus have to be replaced.]
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004168?q=%22It+would+not+be+reasonable+to+say%22&p=par
Also, the WTS when addressing the evil slave, calling it a hypothetical, is doing so from Matthew’s account, but my question is… in reading this same account from Luke, who is the slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line and who is the one that did not understand??? Or are they also hypothetical???
[Luke 12: 41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so! 44 I tell YOU truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and should start to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting [him] and in an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few.]
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/42/12#dcv_12_41
Since I am not aware at this time rather you say if “the foolish virgins” are hypothetical or not, then I just have a few secondary questions regarding “the foolish virgins” if in fact they are not hypothetical.
According to paragraph 16 on page 7 in the July 15, 2013 WT, the bridegroom (Jesus) in the parable found at Matthew 25:1-12, has not arrived yet and does not do so until his future arrival at Matt 24:30. That being said, it becomes obvious that the ready (discreet) virgins have not yet entered into the marriage feast yet and the door is therefore not shut. My question is, according to the parable, where are the foolish virgins in proximity to the discreet virgins prior to the bridegroom’s arrival??? Who make up the discreet virgins presently??? Who make up the foolish virgins presently???
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013530?q=%22bridegroom%22&p=par
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/40/25
[Matthew 25:1 “Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were discreet. 3 For the foolish took their lamps but took no oil with them, 4 whereas the discreet took oil in their receptacles with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom was delaying, they all nodded and went to sleep. 6 Right in the middle of the night there arose a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Be on YOUR way out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and put their lamps in order. 8 The foolish said to the discreet, ‘Give us some of YOUR oil, because our lamps are about to go out.’ 9 The discreet answered with the words, ‘Perhaps there may not be quite enough for us and YOU. Be on YOUR way, instead, to those who sell it and buy for yourselves.’ 10 While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. 11 Afterwards the rest of the virgins also came, saying, ‘Sir, sir, open to us!’ 12 In answer he said, ‘I tell YOU the truth, I do not know YOU.’]
Endnote in regards to the 3-1-04 WT excerpt.
That footnote is stating that Jesus’ arrival pertaining to the rewarding of the faithful slave, the judgment of the foolish virgins and the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent, occurred back in 1918, but now in the 7-15-13 WT, the new adjusted understanding is that the rewarding of the faithful slave, the judgment of the foolish virgins and the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent was not back in 1918 but occurs at Jesus’ future coming at Matthew 24:30. My question is…since they (WTS) stated the implications of what it would mean if that rewarding/judgment where at Jesus’ future arrival, but now state that, that rewarding/judgment are indeed at Jesus’ future arrival, then what does that mean for what they said that would imply…to be more direct, does the same still apply???
__________________________________________________
[11-15-14 WT- Malachi chapter 3 mentions a similar inspection of the spiritual temple, followed by a time of cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-4) How long did this inspection and cleansing work take? It extended from 1914 to the early part of 1919... In 1919 they were among those who wereappointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave”]
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20141115/questions-from-readers/
The inspection and cleansing work did not occur back at that time, it occurs upon those that are alive and will be on hand when Armageddon arrives. (Luke 19:43,44; Isaiah 29:2-4 Luke 21:20-24; Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5)
They have to be refined and cleansed to such a degree at that time (pre-Armageddon) because they are the ones that will live on in post-Armageddon without ever having to die.
Also, the ‘faithful slave’ and the ‘wicked and sluggish slave/evil salve’ are only distinguished to be so when the master comes to settle accounts with his slaves. Before such time they are all just considered to be ‘slaves’ carrying out the work of their ‘master’. At no time prior to the master coming to settle accounts with the slaves should the slaves themselves refer to themselves as being ‘faithful slaves’ (That’s for the master to determine when he arrives.) but to the contrary, the slaves are said to say of themselves that they “are good-for-nothing slaves” during the time they are carrying out their assigned work. (Luke 17:10)
[Matthew 25:14 “For it is just as when a man, about to travel abroad, summoned slaves of his and committed to them his belongings.
19 “After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 So the one that had received five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, saying, ‘Master, you committed five talents to me; see, I gained five talents more.’
21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’
22 Next the one that had received the two talents came forward and said, ‘Master, you committed to me two talents; see, I gained two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things.Enter into the joy of your master.’
24 “Finally the one that had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow?]
Again, it is not determined as to the faithfulness or not of the slaves until the master arrives. It is very presumptuous for any so-called slaves to make the claim of themselves as already being ‘the faithful slaves’ before the master has even arrived.
The master does not originally appoint or give the slaves their assigned work based on having judged them for their faithfulness. The master actually judges the slaves when he arrives based upon how the salves handled the assigned work, the master will then determine as to the faithfulness of the salves. It is at that point that the salves will be judged as to being faithful or not and will be appointed over all the master’s belongings/over many things, due to them being found faithful over few things/assigned work/given food at the proper time to domestics.
↓ The following in verse 45 is not stating that an already found ‘faithful slave’ is who is appointed. It is asking the question of whom the ‘faithful slave’ is/or will end up being. (That’s for the master to determine when he arrives.) Verse 46 answers the question stating that when the master arrives and finds the slave faithfully doing his assigned work then that slave will be appointed over all the master’s belongings/over many things.
[Matthew 24:45“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.] (Compare with Matthew 25:14-26, also read ‘EVIL SLAVE…hypothetical???’ again.)
http://johnamos880.wordpress.com/1914/10/02/httpwol-jw-orgenwoldr1lp-e302014025qoctober21914ppar/
http://johnamos880.wordpress.com/1919/03/26/httpwww-jw-orgen/
w 2013/7/15
Was Jesus foretelling that there would be an evil slave class in the last days? No. Granted, some individuals have manifested a spirit similar to that of the evil slave described by Jesus. We would call them apostates, whether they were of the anointed or of the “great crowd.” (Rev. 7:9) But such ones do not make up an evil slave class. Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave . His words here are actually a warning directed to the faithful and discreet slave.
Wow, what a set-up this line of reasoning is, and clever to boot. With this line of reasoning, they can very cleverly say that Ray Franz (and other Governing Body member thinking of a coup) can be immediately dismissed as being part of the Evil Slave Class and everything they say dismissed as heracy, no matter what spiritual backing and logic these present. Brilliant! Well played JW.org spin-docters, well played.
- Wing Commander
Wingcommander exactly!!! Then the question is why would Jesus choose them between 1914-1919 if they had issues with evil slaves in their organization and why did he not stop these men from creeping in???
I think between Jesus and God they could have figured out Ray Franz was a so called "evil-slave" and not even alllowed him to become one of the anonited, but they say God and Jesus themselves appoint every FDS member... My brain is bleeding from the insanity of this!!!
Good point!
