Matthew 24:36-37

by lambsbottom 3 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • lambsbottom
    lambsbottom

    Matthew 24:
    36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence (parousia) of the Son of man will be.

    I had always thought JWs took 36 as meaning Christ's coming at Armageddon (erchomai), after the 1914 presence (parousia). However, the greek word in 37 is parousia. So, verse 36 is talking about Christ coming at Armageddon? Or, is it talking about the parousia? We were always told the "day" is when Jesus comes to kill all non-jws.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    I believe the Society considers "the day" to be Armageddon, yes. That's why they wrote:

    "This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that 'concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.' To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the 'day and hour.'

    --Watchtower (Aug. 15, 1968)

    The contradiction that you're sensing here was expounded on by cofty in his famous parousia letter where he pointed out that the parousia certainly seems to be described as a sudden, visible, unpredictable event, not as an invisible period of presence that begins at a predicted time. The Society's teaching on this is so tangled up after all these years that they had no response they could give him that doesn't endanger the very foundation of the religion, the "successful" 1914 prediction.

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    Yes, Jesus was actually talking about the start of his parousia. Contrary to Watchtower's century long, invisible presence claim, Jesus' parousia starts with his final coming - not with a century of inivisible heavenly rule.

    Note also, that Jesus was actually using the flood of Noah's day to make the point about his parousia coming at an unknown time. Watchtower inaccurately translates Matthew 24:39 as "and they took no note until the flood came ...". But the greek text doesn't say this. It actually says "and they did not know until the flood came...". Jesus was really saying the flood of Noah's day came at an unexpected time (because they too did not know what day it was coming) so they went about normal activities of life - eating, drinking, marrying, etc - up until the day of the flood. Notice how Jesus continues this point of being caught doing normal day-to-day activities in verse 40 where he says that his presence will catch some grinding at the mill and working in the field. So the whole point of Jesus' comparison with the days of Noah was to make the point about the sudden, unexpected nature of the timing of his presence, such that people will continue to be doing normal life activities up until the day he comes. When you logically follow the writers' flow of thought from verse 36 to verse 42 with an accurate translation and an open mind free of Watchtower bias, this becomes obvious.

    The Watchtower is playing a game of linguistic technicalities with the word parousia trying to say it's different from Jesus final coming at armageddon. But really, Jesus final coming is what marks the start of his parousia. This is why Jesus uses the two terms interchangeably at Matthew 24:36-42. His presence starts with his coming so the technical difference in meaning between parousia and coming is irrelevant in the eschatological context that Jesus is speaking. Besides it's basic common sense that a person has to first come in order to be present. But Watchtower foolishes teahes the illogical concept that Jesus is present before he comes. I think they're confusing Jesus presence and coming with another kind of presence and coming, if you know what I mean. LOL.

    There are other scriptures throughout the NT that imply that the presence starts with christ's final coming. 2 Peter 3:9 is one. Peter responds to the ridiculers asking "where is the promised presence" by saying that God is not slow respecting his promise (the promised presence) but is patient because he does not desire any to be destroyed, but desires all to attain to repentance. Do you see the implication of this verse? It implies that when the presence starts there would not be any more time left for any to repent. Therefore the presence starts with Jesus coming to destroy the wicked. But according to JWs 2 Peter 3:9 has to be a lie, because people have had a whole century of opportunity to repent after the presence started in 1914. See how screwed up JW eschatology really is? Note also that according to JW teaching, the ridiculers mentioned in 2 Peter 3:4 are actually living during the presence while asking where is the presence - because they're living in the last days which JWs say, started with the start of christ's presence. But Peter - and most JWs - seem to be completely oblivious to this irony.

    Another scripture that implies a climactic start to christ's presence is James 5:7 - pay attention to the use of the word until in that verse. It clearly implies that christians no longer need to exercise patience once christ's presence starts as they will at that time be taken out of this trialsome world and receive their promised heavenly reward. But according to JW teaching, a christian who was alive at the start of christ's presence would have to continue exercising patience his whole life. This essentially invalidates the encouragement of James 5:7

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Well said. Basically this topic only gets confusing when you start with the Watchtower teaching and have to work your way out from there to a common-sense reading. Jesus' message was really quite straightforward and it doesn't require learning Greek in order to distinguish erkhomai from parousia.

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