If God is perfect, why is there a universe?

by Coded Logic 4 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Looking for any weaknesses in my arguments. I put them together not to show that the conclusions are true but rather to prove that the first premise in each of them (used by religious people) is incoherent with the rest of their beliefs. Please feel free to point out what you think works or doesn't work and why. Thanks :)

    Anti-Ontological Argument

    Premise 1: God is a perfect being

    Premise 2: A perfect being would be perfectly expressed

    Premise 3: Creation is an act of expression

    Conclusion: God would not create the universe because he would have already been perfectly expressed

    .

    Anti-Interaction Argument

    Premise 1: God is unchanging

    Premise 2: The universe is always changing

    Premise 3: Interaction is a form of change

    Conclusion: God cannot interact with the universe without changing

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    When people think logically, this proves that God exists.

    When people do not think logically this proves that God does not exist.

    Doug

  • prologos
    prologos

    We obviously have a universe, so the premises or conclusions in the two argument must be flawed to arrive at the 'no-universe' result.

    with that established, for religious inclined "thinkers":

    a2) Jesus was another "perfect" being, for some even "God"; so, when nature called, was that another perfect expression?, of a pressing (urgent) need? EXpressing hard? Did Adam and Jesus become imperfect, impossible by their expressions? so what would be perfect?

    Conclusion. what would be the prior perfect expression, creation to the universe?

    b1) who says "god" is unchanging,

    b3) who says god (the creator) is interacting with the universe? it seems to be doing well on it's own, no tinkering detected so far.

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    Anti-Ontological Argument

    Premise 1: God is a perfect being

    Premise 2: A perfect being would be perfectly expressed

    Premise 3: Creation is an act of expression

    Conclusion: God would not create the universe because he would have already been perfectly expressed

    Premise 2 does not follow logically from premise 1. Why would a perfect being have to be expressed perfectly? Couldn't a perfect being choose to express him imperfectly? If I were a "perfect" architect/builder, I might for a number of reasons (finances, scarcity of materials, etc.) choose to build "imperfect" houses.

    I don't understand how you arrive at your concclusion from the argument preceding it. Why would God have "already been perfectly expressed"? He could choose to express himself whenever/however (perfectly or imperfectly) he wanted.

    Anti-Interaction Argument

    Premise 1: God is unchanging

    Premise 2: The universe is always changing

    Premise 3: Interaction is a form of change

    Conclusion: God cannot interact with the universe without changing

    This argument is meaningless without a strict defintion of "change".

    Suppose I design and build a swimming pool. I interact with the pool by jumping into it and swimming. I'm causing changes in the pool (movements of water molecules, heating water due to my body heat, etc.), and I'm changing in the sense that my position in space is changing, my body temperature is lowering (loss of heat to water), etc. However, I'm not necessarily changing in my personality, abilities, goals etc.

    So one could argue that God changes when he interacts with the universe in that his positiion (whatever that might mean to a spirit) changes, his mood (anger, sorrow, etc.) changes, but his basic qualities and purposes don't change.

    Again, in an argument like the one above, questionable/gray/fuzzy terms like "change" have to be strictly defined.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Premise: God has a plan for me.

    Fact: Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, or T-Mobile (or others) have a plan for me.

    Conclusion: God could get my phone number quite easily and tell me the plan for me. Until then, I will continue without Him.

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