by TMS 9 Replies latest jw friends
This quote from another thread:
Mr. Brumley "The worst thing for us is a well educated balanced former witness" They are used to the foaming at the mouth rabid apostates of years past. They do not know what to do with reasonable well spoken individuals like you.
I notice that too, TMS. The part attributed to mr. Brumley is "The worst thing for us is a well educated balanced former witness".
Kismet, could you clarify the context and give a reference?
TMS, just a thought, you might want to get Kismet's attention in the title to your thread.
They do not want former JWs who can organize anti-Watchtower Society Bible Study groups that still love Jehovah. They don't mind exJWs who are not good at speaking, maybe mentally unbalanced, atheists or pagans, who use foul language and the like. But when people who exit the WTS remain articulate, capable and highly credible, e.g. Bill Bowen, then that scares them.
Ray Franz did them much damage after they kicked him off their Governing Body because he spoke up for reforms by his clearly communicating many of their wrongs in his two books, but it was fortunate to them that he did not care to organize an alternative. All the same, Free Christian groups do now exist and are becoming increasingly better organized.
That and the lawsuits which the WTS is going to have to pay out on rightly scares the little old boys in Brooklyn. Isn't that right, Henschel and Company.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/reformjwsandfriends/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian
SixofNine,
Even without the specific origin and intent of the original quote, this seems like a valid observation.
My experience with so-called apostates of the past was limited to "millennial dawners" or folks who had an unrecognized scriptural pet peeve.
My gut feeling is that current exes pose a somewhat different and more articulate threat than in the past.
TMS
The 'rabid' apostate of the past is a myth ... in the past, ex-JWs just disappeared as there was no easy way to make contact or organize ... the ex-JW of today - with the exception of some who have become bible thumping fundamentalists - are able to connect through the Internet and the majority are good, balanced, and a better educated group ... I do agree that this is a consternation to the Watchtower Society.
The quote mentioned by TMS was made in a telephone conversation between the Brooklyn Legal team and the Canada Branch. There was a discussion about 'expert witnesses.'
Glen How had just finished a case wherein Duane Magnani was rejected as an expert witness due to his obvious angst against the JW's and was more interested in promoting his own hatred versus being a reliable expert on the beliefs and tenets of the JW faith.
A conversation ensued about the majority of active apostates being mentally unstable and rabid and thus easy to dismiss. The ones dressed in gorilla suits while picketing, Mr. Coffee, Mr. Magnani, at times Jerry Bergman, the ones who took fanatical measures or those that 'found Jesus' and attempted to preach with the same zealousness that they accuse the JW's of doing. Self righteous 'born agains' were often the easiest to dismiss.
It was at that point when Glen How made a comment that he wishes more of the JW clients they end up representing were of a more spiritually strong background. The majority of times the Witness client are weaker publishers in the congregation. Glen commented how he would love to get a spiritually strong eloquent elder in front of a judge some day.
It was at that point Brumley made the comment, I am glad we haven't had any apostates like that...
"The worst thing for us is a well educated balanced former witness"For example, Norway has long been dealing with the rabid antics of Kent. He sends postcards of scantily clothed men to the Branch Coordinator's wife and pictures of asses to the Branch Coordinator. He writes boasting letters often including rants and taunts. Sure many exjws roll on the floor laughing but it is easy to dismis his better research when questioned by JW's by relating those same antics to the active JW. So the questioning Witness walks away.. dismissing anything positive Kent may offer.
Or take the example of an apostate who decides to run across the field of a District Convention carrying a sign, with obscure references to "John & Mary" from an older Witness publication. Such antics only strengthen the resolve of Witensses and reinforces their opinion that all who leave become tools of Satan and return to their own vomit etc..
Over the past couple of years the WTBS has been forced to deal with more of the non-rabid form of apostates. James Penton and Ray Franz were the forefathers of this type of opposer.
My comments addressed to Barbara were meant as recognizing how nervous she can make the legal team because of her grace under pressure, her eloquence and her intellect. She cannot be so easily dismissed. It is my opinion that she should be the proverbial poster child as to how exjw's should conduct themselves when dealing with the courts and the media.
Don't be fooled. the Society has some great contacts in the media who are likely being groomed on how to push the hot buttons of these people. trying to get them to be drawn into a rant where they display their raw hatred or may make some damning quote while venting. Venting should never be done in a court setting or to the media. Words need to be carefully chosen.
That said, childish pranks only minimize the content of your message. Take for example the stupidity of the JW's who vandalized Bill Bowen's property. All that did was to make the JW's look foolish. If ExJW's did such acts the result would be that you would be made to look foolish. And if done in Bill's name he too would bare the brunt of the 'foolish' label whether he knew of the event or not.
Sorry this has become long winded but it is something I have long been trying to promote. Folks like Hilary, Hawkaw, Marvin, Scully have been able to more eloquently get these idea across.
Kismet
edited to make the quote code work
Kismet
My sentiments exactly
thank you
A not-so-silent lamb
Aspire to inspire before you expire
This aside from Kismet:
It was at that point Brumley made the comment, I am glad we haven't had any apostates like that...This is so ironic. A generation of JW's were schooled in "letting their reasonableness become known to all men." They stood at the door of the householder with a broad smile, patting the pooch on the head. For them, no question was inflammatory. Nothing rattled them. . . . Just, straightforward, well-illustrated Biblical replies to any question, always cognizant of leaving the householder in a good frame of mind for the next Witness. . . . . .
Now, some of the best and brightest of these have seen through the veneer of "God's spirit-directed organization" and are just as unflappable in presenting what they know.
TMS
Kismet,
A very powerful message - thank you.
I have heard similar sentiments spoken by an important part of CAD Legal. Most of them jeer at the antics of XJW's whom frankly they could legally speaking at least, eat for breakfast. The WTS is in a very confident position legally, having emerged victorious from most if its court battles. They win *far more* cases than are lost and certainly are not influenced by sentiment when they enter courtrooms.
The perception with WTS Legal is that XJW's are a disgruntled bunch, mostly addled because they have been DF'd and *not* because they have any issue of principle with the WTS over doctrine or serious isues. As one senior member of US Legal told me last year, "These people are DF’d for deceiving their wives, or sleeping around, find the anti WTS cause, and then pretend they are crusaders for all that is upright in life". Succinctly put, they are not intimidated by XJW’s.
Of course they *are* effected by issues that XJW’s raise, but their concern is not focused on the effect that these have on JW’s, who are a captive audience, but the public who are not. And I have to admit, through gritted teeth, that they are *very* good at what they do best, that is spinning PR.
For example, if you were to telephone CAD WTS Legal this evening to report a case of child-abuse, you would be told by the pasty Sallis, "We do not want to know, GO TO THE POLICE IMMEDIATELY". Things have changed, and changed overnight. Why have they done this, for the sake of the children? Because they have seen the point of SilentLambs issues? No, they have done this to protect the WTS from further bad publicity and to solidify a legal position. As I have said on numerous occasions, the WTS has cunning to burn, with policies honed from decades of ‘persecution’. Letters from opponents insulting them and all that they stand for are a first class waste of first class postage. Most never even get near their targets anyway, and all of them are viewed as vile filth spewed from vile people. I hasten to add that is not necessarily my own position.
The XJW’s fear the word ‘Organization’ and understandably so, but without organization I cannot see any sensible challenge being launched that will change WTS policy, apart from a cosmetic alteration, in the short term.
If XJW’s want a short term and rapid change in the more anti-social elements of WTS policy, they need an executive Board, they need financial clout, they need a plan that is short on blustering rhetoric and long on action, and above all they need focus. This may not be possible as so many of us feel that we must become monsters to fight monsters, and frankly loose our way in the forest of pain that we find ourselves in, but until then I suspect that most of us will come to this Board with our little bits of scandal and meta-searched news snippets and spit in the wind.
HS
Interesting comments Kismet. I think it is often to our advantage to just let JWs be themselves and talk, thereby condemning themselves. I guess, the WT's position is probably exactly the same with regard to the exJW community. If we can't step back and be reasonable we will be reduced to just playing out our stereotypical roles and working against ourselves.
I found Hillary's comments interesting at the end of his post..
The XJWs fear the word Organization and understandably so, but without organization I cannot see any sensible challenge being launched that will change WTS policy, apart from a cosmetic alteration, in the short term.If XJWs want a short term and rapid change in the more anti-social elements of WTS policy, they need an executive Board, they need financial clout, they need a plan that is short on blustering rhetoric and long on action, and above all they need focus. This may not be possible as so many of us feel that we must become monsters to fight monsters, and frankly loose our way in the forest of pain that we find ourselves in, but until then I suspect that most of us will come to this Board with our little bits of scandal and meta-searched news snippets and spit in the wind.
I have posted to this effect in the past as well and I agree. But these sentiments are met with resistance, and understandably so. I think the long and slow road is what will ultimately be followed, where we all wait and watch this thing slowly fade away instead of anything spectacular and decisive.
The internet does provide for loosly organized assaults on the organization due to a measure of co-ordination and correspondence "behind the scenes". But I don't see this as effective as would a recognized organization with charitable status.
The funny thing is, whether there is a formal "organization" of exJWs or not, there invitably is or will be a measure of organization that is simply hidden creating an elite group that ultimately might prove more distastful, less accountable and less effective.
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