by Bona Dea 2 Replies latest jw friends
I was reading through some old sites I used to visit, when I came across this:
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm253956.html
It seems this thread began over the Dateline airing and blossomed into something more. I know that many of you here have extensive knowledge about the issues this person has brought up and maybe you could help her out....
Thanks in advance,
Bona
Anyone???
Here is just a bit of the dialogue there:
Date: 6/11/2002 12:57:00 PM
From Authorid: 160 Teep, I suppose that you would probably have to be in the congregation to really understand it and I will attemp to iron something out, I hope that it does not backfire in my face so here goes. We are imperfect humans, J.W. count themselves as being imperfect and never will you hear anyone say contrary... As a result of being imperfect we fall, sometimes when we fall we see that we need work in some areas and we have the avenue of prayer to help. I am generally speaking about cursing when angry or perhaps we tell a little "white lie" Jehovahs Witneses know and understand the scriptural view of such matters and they try to apply those standards and change their behavior. Some things can be taken care of that way and some such as an accusation of child molestation cannot! This is something that will be exposed as a serious matter, never to be taken lightly. The courts in this land may let a person off as it happens so many times but NEVER EVER will anything such as this go by Jehovah. NEVER! If the people that are in a position of authority (Elders in this case) did nothing at all they would be just as responsible to Jehovah for their inaction as the person that did the wrongdoing. Many times I have heard when things are not in balance in the congregation that "Jehovah will expose it in time" In the meantime we are to continue on the course and not to allow anything to stumble us in our endeavors to serve him. We do have the faith that he will take care of matters. I hope that you have the foresight to "see" what I am trying to tell you, no one here condones what may have taken place on that show. We are mainly interested in upholding Gods integrity. Man falls, they continue to disapoint Jehovah but what we are saying to you is that the bible does not condone such behaviour and anyone that wants to serve the true God will not either.... We cannot answer for everyone, we gave you scriptural reasons why this is unlikely to happen, not impossible but unlikely... In the meantime "As for me and my household we shall serve Jehovah" No matter what else happens.  |
Date: 6/11/2002 3:25:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 35031 Thanks Pamyjo I know it must seem confusing, I'll try to explain more clearly. If there is only witness or victim and it's one person's account, scripturally the congregation can take no disciplinary action. However, the person involved is free to go to the authorities to report the crime against them and if at some point the accused should confess or new information proving their guilt should emerge, then the congregation would take disciplinary action. If there ARE 2 witnesses and the elders do not take the proper actions including reporting the matter to the authorities when required by law, the victim or their family would then 1. Go to the police to report the crime. 2. Go within the structural arrangement in the organization to right the wrong done in their congregation. All congregations are united, being a member of one congregation doesn't prevent a person from approaching an elder in another congregation to get help in resolving a problem. 1 Corinthians only applies when the elders have acted inappropriately in handling the matters as far as the congregation is concerned. That is why I mentioned the elders being human if they failed to take the proper action either by reporting the crime to authorities , or handling the matter within the congregation. No loyal member of the congregation would publicly dishonor Jehovah's organization. They would 1. go the the police themselves with the crime. 2. Go within the organization to get justice done within the congregation and disciplinary action taken there. Does sound any clearer?  |
| Date: 6/11/2002 4:03:00 PM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 35031 Teep, As to your other questions. Sometimes people we trust make mistakes and others have to be brought in to straighten out problems. We know that no matter even thought hidden will not be brought to light because that's what the Bible says. Matthew 13:41 shows that Jesus will have the angels remove ALL stumbling blocks. So those doing wrong and stumbling others will not be allowed to remain. However, Jehovah ususally gives the wrongdoer time to straighten matters out himself, just as he allowed Saul time before he removed him and replaced him with David. Those wronged within the congregation patiently wait on Jehovah to right the wrong after they have appealed to the proper authorities within the organization. Again I must emphasize this does not mean the CRIME of rape that is handled by the secular authorities (and congregation elders if the wrongdoing is established scripturally). Your comments about Bill Bowen suggested that it wasn't handled right within the congregation so I lined out the course that the couple could have taken (if this was so) and stayed loyal to Jehovah's organization. Your comments about people outside of Jehovah's organization. Yes they use the Bible and believe they are adherring to it's principals, yet they are deeply involved with pagan celebrations and traditions which the Bible condemns, therefore can it truly be said they are adherring to Bible principals? NOt to mention their connection to ancient Babylon and it's teachings (trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul) Whether they realize it or not this connection results in their sharing in her bloodguilt. The history of the early "Christian" church too(which all Catholic and protestant religions are branches of) and it's crusades and wars not to mention the modern-day wars which they participate in, all result in bloodguilt. That is why we do not share with them but encourage everyone that will listen to get out of these churches before it's too late. Rev. 18:4 |
Date: 6/14/2002 6:57:00 AM ( Your Reply )
From Authorid: 12600 Hi PamyJo. I just wanted to say thank you for that loving reply. I know we (well, I speak for myself and assume that you do as well) want to do the right things and what is pleasing in Jehovah's eyes. I, personally, feel that the "watchtower" is given entirelly tooooo much importance within the organization and that it detracts from God and it detracts from Jesus (2 Thess 2:1-4). Too many people are trying to do what is right by these MEN and they are losing sight of God. And that is just ONE of the reasons why I have abandoned the path that leads to them. I agree with the scripture you quoted and I feel the same..."As for me and my house we will serve the Lord"...NOT "As for me and my house we will serve men CLAIMING to be His visible representatives on earth and the ONLY way to heaven." I believe in this sense they do as Jesus said the Pharisees did in Matt 23:13. You said:--->>>>If the people that are in a position of authority (Elders in this case) did nothing at all they would be just as responsible to Jehovah for their inaction as the person that did the wrongdoing.<<<<--- And I wholeheartedly agree. And that is why I believe these victims had EVERY RIGHT to go to the press. They couldn't find justice within their church. Bottom line. Even now within the congregations, Erica is labeled a slut, the Pandelos and Mr. Bowen are spoken of as if they are dogs...their names are being slandered (Titus 3:2) left and right by "true christians", and Barbara Anderson is facing a lawsuit simply for wanting a change in policy, in order to protect the children. You and Karen and me and ANYONE else on this board who has ever been actively involved with this org KNOWS for a FACT that the rank and file witnesses (that being the peon followers) DO NOT have a voice. Period. When any of these folks tried to work things out while "keeping it confidentially within the church", nothing happened except they were told to "keep quiet" and/or that "Jehovah will work it out". (see Watchtower article "Integrity Leads the Upright Ones", 5-15-02, pg 27, subheading "a town is exalted", to see how true "integrity seekers" are supposed to keep things "covered up".) I just can't buy into this. I have read too many things about JWs, about how they discourage independent thinking, how they claim that no one can truly understand the bible without them, how they once taught that heaven was within the constellation Pleides, near the star Alclyon (sp?), how they continually mis-prophesy the end/the (invisible) return of Christ (Matt 24:23-27), how they teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel (Col 2:18), how they put down the rest of Christendom for their involvement with the UN and they themselves are guilty of the same thing, how they keep changing their doctrine (date changes, sodom and gommorah will be resurrected..no they won't, yes they will, no they won't, yes they will) and policies (no vaccinations, nevermind you can have vaccinations; No voting, well at least not in America; NO blood unless it is Hemopure--which is cow's blood--and you can have ALL components of plasma BUT you can't have plasma) at the risk of the lives of many followers, how they claim that Jesus is Abaddon and they are the locusts (Rev 9:1-11), how numerous prophecy applies to THEM (how absurdly arrogant)... and way too many more kooky beliefs to name (Colossians 2:8, 1 Timothy 6:3-5, Titus 2:1, Titus 3:9, Hebrews 13:9). I simply cannot swallow this. That is why I have reached the point where I MUST question EVERYTHING ELSE these people have taught me is "the truth". This is why I have began an INDEPENDENT STUDY of the BIBLE without ANY aid from them, their publications, or anyone elses "doctrines" or reasonings for them. Anyway (sorry, went completely off the subject there) in regards to the pedophile issue, perhaps, this IS God's way of "cleansing"?? Maybe??? I personally do not feel that you guys are sole owners of the "truth" so, I don't think that necessarily that he is removing "stumbling" blocks from you guys but that IF his hand is in this it is to protect anymore of the children from being harmed in His name...not much unlike what is going on with the "cleansing" of the Catholic Church. Oh dear Lord, save us from your followers...LOL.... ~peace~  |
| Date: 6/14/2002 7:32:00 AM ( Your Reply )
From Authorid: 12600 Karen, I must've missed where you outlined what should be done in case things were mishandled by the Elders. Was it where one should sit back and "wait on Jehovah"? I believe the authorities are here (appointed by God) to admonish justice where justice is needed and if the church is NOT appropriately handling situations where crimes are involved then YES, someone needs to toot the horn on them. In regards to your statements here: ---->>>>Yes they use the Bible and believe they are adherring to it's principals, yet they are deeply involved with pagan celebrations and traditions which the Bible condemns, therefore can it truly be said they are adherring to Bible principals?<<<<---- Are you aware that the use of a calendar is a pagan ritual? That candles were also used in pagan ceremonies?? That the Last Supper was also a fable from another (pagan) religion (will have to look it up) BEFORE Jesus did it with his disciples?? That the giving of rings in a wedding is pagan in origin?? Do you EVEN realize how many things that you do in ONE day that has roots in paganism; things that you are not even aware of??? That is why the bible teaches us not to get hung up on these petty little things that pick each other apart and stumble folks (I quoted a bunch of scripture in a previous post about defiled and inpure things). You said here ---->>>>>Not to mention their connection to ancient Babylon and it's teachings (trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul) Whether they realize it or not this connection results in their sharing in her bloodguilt.<<<<---- Well, I have not established what I believe concerning the "doctrinal issues" you have stated above. I have however did a pretty in depth study of the Trinity and it is my opinion that the bible supports the belief of and the non-belief of it. The other two, I haven't really studied. So, I can't honestly defend either position regarding these issues. But I can touch on somethings that do bother me. Where do think the teaching that Jesus was an angel came from? I'm sure that is an inspired revelation to the Governing Body from God through (as they are the only ones, according to their teachings, that Jesus speaks to anyway)...LOL, when the bible explicity says not to worship angels. Oh yes, but that's right...you guys don't "worship" Jesus, you "do obesience" to him (*rolls eyes*). Ever wonder why the writers of the NT didn't just use the greek word for "honor" instead of the greek word for "worship" in those scriptures, if you were only supposed to "honor" Jesus?? What about the Watchtower's Blood Policy? How about all of the countless people who've died? How about how they boast their poor children as being "martyrs" on front of their publications? The Watchtower is STILL doing this...even to the point of taking children away from parents who choose to do otherwise. How about all the people who've died because of the policy of vaccinations or organ transplants that you guys once had but have now had "new light" on??? How about taking away people's freedom to use THEIR OWN CONSCIENCE??? Their are many more things I could mention, but it would obviously be pointless. This will be my last post (I'm serious this time :-]). I hope you all have a blessed life..... |
| Date: 6/14/2002 7:45:00 AM ( Your Reply )
From Authorid: 12600 The last supper story can be found in pagan stories relating to Dionysus (greek) and in Zoroastrianism (Mithraism). |
| Date: 6/19/2002 1:49:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 35031 Teep, Where in the world are you getting your information? No blood unless it's hemopure? That is absolutely unbelievable. I've seen some really off-track accusations against the witnesses but that one really amazes me. I'm going to answer each one of your accusations. But first let me address the "quote" from the May 15 Watchtower. What you are quoting is Proverbs 11:12,13 which is quoted in the article. The section "A Town is Exalted" is taken from Solomon's writing at Provers 11:11. The application is showing how SLANDEROUS talk can cause disunity in a congreation as well as a town. Verses 12 and 13 say "The one in wnat of heart has despised his own fellowman, but the man of broad discernment is one that keeps silent. The one walking abaout as a slanderer is uncovering confidential talk, but the one faithful in spirit is covering over a matter." To quote the article "Townspeople who follow an upright course promote peace and well-being and build up others in the community. Thus a town is exalted - it prospers. Those who speak slanderous, hurtful and wrong things cause unrest, unhappiness, disunity, and trouble. This is particularly so if these individuals are in a position of influence. Such a town suffers disorder, corruption, and moral deterioration." Then the article makes the comparison of a town to a congregation making current application. Did you read this article yourself? I can't understand how you came up with the mistaken application. I have heard so many of the other things before from those who I personally know who persued an adulterous course and was disfellowshipped and angry for being disfellowshipped and now goes online to attack his former brothers. The UN accusation is one he uses. I just addressed this on another post. The Witnesses are accused of being MEMBERS of the UN. NO RELIGION is a member of the UN. Jehovah's Witnesses cooperate with the government in all areas that are not in violation of Bible principals. We pay our taxes and obey laws. I was at an assembly in California when the army wanted to observe how hot meals were served so quickly to so many. The brothers allowed them to observe. WE are promoters of peace. In many countries we have overcome many obstacles to be able to establish the preaching activity. The UN has actually sought the advice of Jehovah's Witnesses in areas that so much has been accomplished. Our critics would say we have joined the UN in some way which is absolutely not true, if fact it's not true of ANY religion. The only church recognized by the UN in any way is the CAtholic church who has a non-member status because the Vatican is considered a state. I'm going to find it and copy it and send it to you. It's a newspaper article from Rome. I'll be getting back to these other accusations and I'll address them, too. |
| Date: 6/19/2002 2:16:00 AM ( From Author )
From Authorid: 35031 I found the post where the man I was telling you about came on and accused the witnesses of being secret members of the UN. I researched a newspaper article from Rome that I had recently read that dealt with the UN and religion. Our most avid accusers are very active with this one and it's totally false. Here it is: I'm posting this information here because it was brought up here and I want a permanent note that I can refer to and copy whenever the accusation comes up twisting the truth and making it appear that Jehovah's Witnesses are "members" of the U.N. I mistakenly referred to the Catholic Church as such myself because I was going from memory of a news article I had read. When I looked it up I realized that NO RELIGION is a member of the UN. THe Catholic Church holds the status of a NONMEMBER STATE (they are the only religion to hold such status) and they have held that status since 1964. All other religions and organizations are NGO (non-governmental organizations). These include Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc. and recently according to the Inter Press Service, a Rome-based news agency reported that "an international coalition of more than 70 non-governmental organizations (NGOs) has launched a global campaign to oust the Vatican from the United Nations." Francis Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, told IPS that the coalition does not oppose the Vatican's right to express its view, but "what is in question is the right of this non-state to occupy a position with governments." IPS quoted her as saying "If the UN treats the Holy See as a state with permanent observer privileges because of its religious authority, the world body is creatingg a precedent for similar claims by other religions." She added, "To ensure that the United Nations does not promote any particular religion, religious entities such as the Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to participate in this forum as a non-member state." The Vatican argues that it is a state and is therefore entitled to its present status. Her response, "That is semantic double-talk." responded Ms. Kissling in an interview. "We say that this is in essence a 15th century definition of statehood and that the Holy See is, in effect, the governing structure of the religion." She added that the terms "Vatican" and "the Holy See" are both "synonyms for the Roman Catholic Church." Much of the resentment of the NGOs against the Vatican's current position in the UN is caused by the Vatican's view on population issues. For instance, the Vatican has used UN conferences such as the 1994 Women's Conference, in Beijing, to express its strong views against family planning. "Since the UN takes most of its decisions by consensus," notes IPS, "dissenting voices such as those of the Vatican have derailed negotiations on issues relating to population, contraception, women's rights and reproductive health care." I'll get back to the others as soon as I can. One point about the blood though. We don't even transfuse OUR OWN BLOOD why in the world would we EVER conceive of using COW'S blood? Blood is sacred and contains life in fact when you compare Genesis 9:4 and Genesis 1:20 in the center reference King James you find that life defined "soul" by the King James at 1:20 is in the blood. That's why the apostles at Acts 15:20 commanded for us to ABSTAIN from blood. Webster defines abstain as "to avoid, to refrain from." |
