Confidential Friends in the Truth!

by D wiltshire 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    This if from JustJW forum and the theme of the discussion is

    "Confidential Friends in the Truth"

    From: applebee (Original Message)

    Sent: 26/06/2002 08:19
    I'm sure we all have friends in the Truth that we can relax with and be ourselves. I know I do. We get together and can be honest about some of our inner feelings, they don't judge us if we don't see things the way the Society tells us we should see them. I'm not saying things like immorality or other bad things of that nature, but someone that we can let our hair down and talk about things we know(or feel) need to be changed in order for God's spirit to be more active in the congregation. I find it very soothing to have friends like this, they don't reveal the confidential talk to others and if we are wrong they kindly show us where we are wrong in such a way that shows that they are really our friend and respect us. They are sorta like a hiding place where you get feed back that is wholesome and not always trying to tow the party line so to speak. I have had some fellow elders that were older than me that I felt very easy to talk to and they didn't always follow the rules laid out the Elders hand book. Many of these older men were more merciful than myself and taught me things that I feel have brought me closer to Jehovah. I guess you can call this a sort of public thanks to such mild tempered ones. Anyway I pray for their peace as they have helped me see the bigger picture, that in my youth I didn't get. On the flip side there are those that can't see past some written rule book in there dealing with fellow elders or friends in general, from these I shy away because I can't get honest with them I have to say what I'm suppose to say or they will right away give me counsel that to me lacks any insight and is lacking in Love. I do feel the Bible is right when it talks about these confidential friend in such a positive way. I think Jesus must have been such a friend to all he had any extended dealings with. I hope I can imatate him more. I know we all fall short but that's one quality of his that I want to keep trying to improve on.


    2-16 of 16 Next Last
    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 2 of 16 in Discussion
    From: Ben Sent: 26/06/2002 14:13

    Thank you for a very thoughtful post. I agree with you that the type of friends you speak of are very valuable but they are also very rare. This is one of the things that has disturbed me for quite a while nowthis business of not being able to speak ones mind openly. Sort of takes away the notion of the freedom we are supposed to have. (smile)


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 3 of 16 in Discussion
    From: jw4jah24 Sent: 26/06/2002 14:50
    Ben said: "I agree with you that the type of friends you speak of are very valuable but they are also very rare. This is one of the things that has disturbed me for quite a while nowthis business of not being able to speak ones mind openly. Sort of takes away the notion of the freedom we are supposed to have." I agree. There really is a lack of freedom in the cong. worldwide in some respects. Sometimes I think it mirrors what the Pharisees had back in the old days. I think it should be okay to speak our minds openly, if we are not speaking in order to have an audience or to draw attention to ourselves and our supposed wisdom.


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 4 of 16 in Discussion
    From: reseacher tony_JW Sent: 26/06/2002 15:11
    You said: I think Jesus must have been such a friend to all he had any extended dealings with. Just a brain storm here, Even had to be "perfected" , tested, and learn many things about being human. To understand our sufferings better. Just think, One moment your the creators Son, and next your the creation... learning to cope with lifes problems, pains, fears, sorrows.


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 5 of 16 in Discussion
    From: reseacher tony_JW Sent: 26/06/2002 15:45

    Ben said:

    I guess I got too close to the curtain.

    I saw the wizard pulling the levers and now the show is not quite the same anymore.

    jw4jah24 said: I agree. There really is a lack of freedom in the cong. worldwide in some respects. Sometimes I think it mirrors what the Pharisees had back in the old days. I think it should be okay to speak our minds openly, if we are not speaking in order to have an audience or to draw attention to ourselves and our supposed wisdom.

    ----------------------------------------

    Tony replays: I must say something here guys,

    I put my foot many a time in my mouth, but to talk like this( quotes above) is not a little matter, shows lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others feelings.

    What you dare to talk like that in Jesus ear, or in prayer to Jehovah. Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart does not become wicked.

    Of course we all think bad thoughts, and must slap ourselves now and then for dumb things we say. But you can't say any thing you want to you Mate(wife), or children.

    Somethings you can't take it back, ( be angry, but don't SIN with you mouth )

    Freedom to speak, freedom to put foot in mouth, but don't shot your self in the foot.

    Disrespectful talk, gets you an cold shoulder, and distrust from others. Both in the family and anywhere else too.


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 6 of 16 in Discussion
    From: jw4jah24 Sent: 26/06/2002 16:58
    Tony Said:

    "Tony replays: I must say something here guys, I put my foot many a time in my mouth, but to talk like this( quotes above) is not a little matter, shows lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others feelings. What you dare to talk like that in Jesus ear, or in prayer to Jehovah. Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart does not become wicked. Of course we all think bad thoughts, and must slap ourselves now and then for dumb things we say. But you can't say any thing you want to you Mate(wife), or children. Somethings you can't take it back, ( be angry, but don't SIN with you mouth ) Freedom to speak, freedom to put foot in mouth, but don't shot your self in the foot. Disrespectful talk, gets you an cold shoulder, and distrust from others. Both in the family and anywhere else too."

    Tony, how exactly did my words show a lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others? Where was disrespectfulness shown in my words? Methinks you place too much emphasis on the slave class. I respect the slave and I am loyal to the decisions made by the slave, but first and foremost my loyalty is to Jehovah God and Christ his son. They are not subject to error. The slave is, since they are only human. If I am in error on this, please admonish me with Scripture.


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 7 of 16 in Discussion
    From: reseacher tony_JW Sent: 27/06/2002 00:16
    To me and you and to all, I say we must always... Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart. Review those bible drama tapes, like the one about the 40 years the Isrealites spent in the wilderness.. and then read you posts again. Ask your self, could your foot be close to slipping.. We alway need to keep an eye on our selves, as to how we are walking, and how we are talking. I won't say more, just a reminder for you, and me too. You can kick my butt, when it's needed too.

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 8 of 16 in Discussion
    From: jw4jah24 Sent: 27/06/2002 05:18
    Tony said: To me and you and to all, I say we must always... Watch out. Watch that mouth, watch that heart. Review those bible drama tapes, like the one about the 40 years the Isrealites spent in the wilderness.. and then read you posts again. Ask your self, could your foot be close to slipping.. We alway need to keep an eye on our selves, as to how we are walking, and how we are talking. I won't say more, just a reminder for you, and me too. You can kick my butt, when it's needed too. Tony, if you see anything wrong with what I've said, please show me what it was and please admonish me with Scripture. Thank you.

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 9 of 16 in Discussion
    From: Ben Sent: 27/06/2002 05:51

    Hello Tony,

    **I put my foot many a time in my mouth, but to talk like this( quotes above) is not a little matter, shows lack of loyalty, love, and concern for others feelings. **

    Lack of loyalty to whom? I was asked a question and I answered it as truthfully as I could. Why should that cause hurt feelings? I have insulted no one nor have I spoken harshly to anyone.

    If you disagree you merely have to say so. That is what freedom is. (smile) It appears that you are calling us wicked. Perhaps you dont mean this but the insinuation is there. You have yet to demonstrate that either of us is guilty of harboring "bad thoughts". What "bad thought" are you referring to?

    The suppression of ideas, be they criticisms or not, is not condusive to freedom. One of the greatest attributes of freedom is the freedom to express ones feelings and thoughts with words.


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 10 of 16 in Discussion
    From: reseacher tony_JW Sent: 28/06/2002 08:23

    Many Israelites died in the wilderness, just because they exercised too much freedom (criticism) with the mouth.

    It was not Moses that destroyed thousand of them, but it was Jehovah that hear then.

    Their crime, "dare to speak against my servant Moses".

    • The Great tribulation is coming,
    • worse is coming,
    • more things to criticizes,
    • and many may die just because of that thing called "the big MOUTH".

    Just dont die because you talked to much, "against my servant Moses".


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 11 of 16 in Discussion
    From: jazmyn Sent: 28/06/2002 11:17
    so, someone please explain, why is there a 'lack of freedom we are supposed to have' as you say? Why are not elders following what is instructed in the elder's handbook? Why is it difficult to 'speak your mind freely'? Are we speaking of varied judgements in assocoations, doctrines, or what exactly?

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 12 of 16 in Discussion
    From: Captain_Commendable_jw Sent: 28/06/2002 11:31

    (1 Peter 2:16) Be as free people, and yet holding

    YOUR freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God.

    Freedom is relative.

    Anon


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 13 of 16 in Discussion
    From: Captain_Commendable_jw Sent: 28/06/2002 11:40
    I wish I could think of these all at one time...

    (Psalm 39:1) I said: "I will guard my ways To keep from sinning with my tongue. I will set a muzzle as a guard to my own mouth, As long as anyone wicked is in front of me."

    Anon


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 14 of 16 in Discussion
    From: reseacher tony_JW Sent: 28/06/2002 15:05

    Two point we see here, let's review..

    *** Rbi8 James 5:1-11 ***


    5 Come, now, YOU rich [men], weep, howling over YOUR miseries that are coming upon YOU . 2 Y OUR riches have rotted, and YOUR outer garments have become moth-eaten. 3 Y OUR gold and silver are rusted away, and their rust will be as a witness against YOU and will eat YOUR fleshy parts. Something like fire is what YOU have stored up in the last days. 4 Look! The wages due the workers who harvested YOUR fields but which are held up by YOU , keep crying out, and the calls for help on the part of the reapers have entered into the ears of Jehovah of armies. 5 Y OU have lived in luxury upon the earth and have gone in for sensual pleasure. Y OU have fattened YOUR hearts on the day of slaughter. 6 Y OU have condemned, YOU have murdered the righteous one. Is he not opposing YOU ?

    7

    Exercise patience, therefore, brothers, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until he gets the early rain and the late rain. 8 Y OU too exercise patience; make YOUR hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close.9 Do not heave sighs against one another, brothers, so that YOU do not get judged. Look! The Judge is standing before the doors.

    10 Brothers, take as a pattern of the suffering of evil and the exercising of patience the prophets, who spoke in the name of Jehovah. 11 Look! We pronounce happy those who have endured. Y OU have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome Jehovah gave, that Jehovah is very tender in affection and merciful.

    *** Rbi8 Matthew 24:18-22 ***
    19
    Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days!

    20 Keep praying that

    YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

    22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

    You many leave this old system without that nice shirt on your back, for there may not even bread in the city.

    ---------------------------

    Don't be surpised if you Cable TV is not working, and there is no music on the radio.

    *** Rbi8 Zephaniah 1:14-18 ***


    14 "The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry. 15 That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom, 16 a day of horn and of alarm signal, against the fortified cities and against the high corner towers.

    17 And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovahs fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth."

    Your Picnic just maybe over... Are you ready... will you still have that endurence... if not it will cost you your life.

    "Children, please take you seats.. you test is about to begin..."


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 15 of 16 in Discussion
    From: Ben Sent: 28/06/2002 15:19

    Tony:

    Are you suggesting that the Society is on equal footing with Moses?

    Moses was able to demonstrate with miracles that he was sent by God.

    Moses did not banish people for disagreeing with him. He left that for God to do. I have yet to see God send down fire from heaven for speaking out against the Society. But I have seen them banish people for disagreeing with their man made rules. So tell me how your illustration works here. (smile)

    Hello, jaz:

    **so, someone please explain,

    why is there a 'lack of freedom we are supposed to have' as you say?

    Why are not elders following what is instructed in the elder's handbook?

    Why is it difficult to 'speak your mind freely'?

    Are we speaking of varied judgements in assocoations, doctrines, or what exactly?**

    +The game is control, power over people. In order to control someone you have to take away some of their freedom.

    +Its been my experience that by far the majority of elders are not qualified to hold their position. Most are uneducated with no formal training to equip them to counsel people in this modern, sophisticated world. I think that J.R. Brown (head of the P.R. dept for the society) said it best when he was asked a similar question about why these child molestation cases were being bungled. He said concerning elders: "They are unpaid volunteers."

    +To speak your mind freely would challenge this power held over your head. To speak freely would mean that many of the silly things we went along with for years (aluminum cookware being poisonous, vaccinations being dangerous, Gods throne being in a particular constellation, etc) would have quickly been dismissed as just plain ridiculous.

    +I dont understand your last question.

    Hello Capt.

    ** (1 Peter 2:16) Be as free people, and yet holding YOUR freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God. **

    Key word is "God". Jesus was very plain on how he felt about those who added to Gods word, thereby creating an unnecessary burden for Gods people.

    **(Psalm 39:1) I said: "I will guard my ways To keep from sinning with my tongue. I will set a muzzle as a guard to my own mouth, As long as anyone wicked is in front of me."**

    Excellent scripture. One facet of this may be something that you may not have realized yet. When you say something as a representative of God you are, in essence, speaking for God and if what you say is false, then you are sinning with your tongue and should heed the last part of the scripture.

    If I speak my opinion I make it know that it is just that. If I were to claim to speak for God that would be an entirely different matter. If only ONE thing that I said as Gods spokesman or channel of communication did not come true I would be making God a liarHow do you think God feels about that???

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 16 of 16 in Discussion
    From: reseacher tony_JW Sent: 28/06/2002 15:37

    *** Rbi8 Matthew 25:31-46 ***
    31 "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

    34 "Then the king will say to those on his right, Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and
    YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me. 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you? 40 And in reply the king will say to them , Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.

    If you dont support CHRISTS BROTHERS,(anointed remnent,ect) then what, what will Christ do to you (left side or the right side)

    41 "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me. 44 Then they also will answer with the words, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you? 45 Then he will answer them with the words, Truly I say to YOU , To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me. 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."
  • Prisca
    Prisca

    Sounds like there are a few "apostates" on that board!

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Prisca,

    You should go over there they are haveing some interesting coversations.

    http://groups.msn.com/JustJWs/1.msnw?pgmarket=en-gb

  • ItsJustlittleoldme
    ItsJustlittleoldme

    nevermind .. (smile)

    Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 28 June 2002 19:57:3

  • ItsJustlittleoldme
    ItsJustlittleoldme

    Hi D wiltshire,

    Very interesting reading.. I especially like the few threads I saw that started out, "Just for fun" and then went on to present ideas that make some of them think!!!

    Hmmm, Me thinkith that a few of the Jw's are getting more than they bargained for there!!!! (smile)

    Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 28 June 2002 19:56:28

  • Dawn
    Dawn

    Sounds like there are a few "apostates" on that board!

    I saw a few responses from someone named.......Dawn.......could it be.......infiltration???

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Yeah Dawn those nasty oppostates, they are all over the intranet.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Here another thread some may like to see:

    Debate : What makes a so-called Christian religion false?
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    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far)Delete Message 1 of 10 in Discussion
    From: applebee (Original Message)Sent: 26/06/2002 12:34
    What makes a so-called Christian religion false? Will all those that belong to false religion be destroyed by God because they have supported a false religion?

    2-10 of 10 Next Last
    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 2 of 10 in Discussion
    From: BenSent: 27/06/2002 04:44

    ** What makes a so-called Christian religion false?

    Will all those that belong to false religion be destroyed by God because they have supported a false religion?**

    Excellent questions. I will venture my opinion. (smile)

    The Bible is not a handbook for a religion. One only has too look at all the religions which use the Bible to see just how many interpretations there are of what is actually there in that very remarkable book. There are persons who devote their entire lives to the study of the ancient languages in which the Bible was written in an effort to better understand its meaning and stillthere are so many versions and opinions of what the authors were trying to say.

    Who is there that has the unchallenged expertise to authoritatively say, definitively, what the Bible actually says on a given topic? There is no one. To say dogmatically that this doctrine is wrong or that this doctrine is right is to be ignorant of the aforementioned fact. We must conclude that God is cognizant of that fact and of the difficulty we humans are having in determining what is truth. That being the case, how does one point to a particular religion and say that it is false? Inasmuch as the truth is hidden so well, how could one be blamed for not having found it?

    Still, inasmuch as the truth is just that, then ANY religion not possessing the complete truth could be said to be false. That would mean every last one of them.

    Then there is also the disturbing question of whether the Bible is really THE word of God to the exclusion of all other works. That throws a different light on the matter all together when the possibility that there is divine truth in other sources as well is considered.

    Should a religion openly confess that it is merely a seeker of truth rather than the keeper of it I think this would be a start in the right direction. If that religion would be a means of providing an environment for the association of persons seeking God and a forum for the expression of those within, I think this would be more constructive. If that religion would recognize that each individual is created in Gods image and is capable of grasping his tiny part of the big picture rather that subscribe to the concept that God only favors the leadership then it would be moving closer to what religion is really supposed to do. Whenever a religion comes to realize that the leadership, in claiming to be Gods spokesman, is in effect, placing itself between God and man, thereby removing the Christ from the picture, then it recognizes that we are all in the same situation here, we are all humans seeking God. A religion like that, to me, would not be false inasmuch as it would be true to its claim.

    Rather than impose doctrines on its membership it should provide the means to learn from one another and allow each and every person his God given right AND responsibility to make the final choice, without fear of peer pressure and punishment from his Christian associates, as to what is right in Gods eyes on ANY matter. It seems to me that God is perfectly capable to write down very plainly when the end will come if he wanted that information revealed. The Society, starting with Russell, (along with other religions as well) has repeatedly attempted to second guess God on this matter. Their predictions have, of course, all been wrong.

    There have been other teachings from things as silly as trying to pinpoint the exact location of Jehovahs throne and saying that Jesus was clean shaven to the long standing doctrine of the generation of 1914 that was pushed with such zeal and conviction until it was suddenly killed in the Watchtower of 11/1/95, to the absurd statements first in the book: "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah How?" on page 216, pp 8: "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." And the other statement in Watchtower 1/1/89 issue that reads: "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our twentieth century." Interestingly enough the wording in that Watchtower was changed when they made the bound volume and the CD so you will have to find the actual magazine to be able to read it. Now I leave it to those reading this post, here and now in the twenty-first century, if those statements were false or not!

    If and when a religion steps up and claims to be the voice of God, to be Gods spokesman to mankind then it can rightly be judged by its claim. If and when a religion claims to have THE TRUTH then it must demonstrate that quality or else it is false by virtue of not being what it claims to be. It cannot be continuously making errors and attempting to correct them under the guise that God is progressively revealing things to them while, at the same time, condemning other religions for not having what it considers, at that very moment, to be the truth.

    A brief example: That business of Jesus not having a beard that was mentioned previouslywho had the truth when "Christendom" depicted Jesus with a beard and we pictured him clean-shaven? Disturbing question is it not? And just because they were right on this particular point, does that make the right on all the others? I think not. So it would appear that no one is ever right all the time when it comes to doctrine. My question is: Why bother with doctrines at all?! (smile)


    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 3 of 10 in Discussion
    From: teenyuckSent: 27/06/2002 06:59
    Ben, that is a wonderful post. You brought out some really good points. I have come to the conclusion that Jehovah would not destroy people just because they were not of a certain faith. That would make no sense. It would negate the whole reason for religion. As I look around at people around me, I wonder, if armageddon happened tomorrow, would God really kill my neighbors who are very religious? They are kind, helpful, have a bible study group to their home; they are not Jehovah's Witnesses. Because they belong to a religion grouped under "christendom" they are doomed to death by the Society's own words. They are simply trying to understand the scriptures and live a clean life. This distresses me. What about all the peaceful, God-loving people world wide? Are they doomed because they do not believe in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's doctrines? Why would Jehovah, all seeing and knowing, doom people just for having faith in him? This would not be loving or kind. You also brought our some good points on 1975. I, too, was there and remember clearly being told that I should not get an education because the new system was fast approaching. I think this is a great disservice to all Witnesses. The false phrophicies and doctrine changes are troublesome. Saying that the brothers are human and will make mistakes makes me wonder on what else they have made mistakes on? I am especially troubled by the issue of organ transplants. In the November 15, 1967 Watchtower the Society declared its opposition to organ transplants. The section "Questions from Readers" posed the question of how Jehovah's Witnesses were to view transplants, and the Society gave its official answer:

    Is there any Scriptural objection to donating one's body for use in medical research or to accepting organs for transplant from such a source?....

    Humans were allowed by God to eat animal flesh and to sustain their human lives by taking the lives of animals, though they were not permitted to eat blood. Did this include eating human flesh, sustaining one's life by means of the body or part of the body of another human, alive or dead? No! That would be cannibalism, a practice abhorrent to all civilized people.... To show disrespect for the sanctity of human life would make one liable to have his own life taken....

    .... Those who submit to such [transplant] operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic.... It is not our place to decide whether such operations are advisable or warranted from a scientific or medical standpoint. It would be well, though, for Christians faced with a decision in this regard to consider the indication as to God's viewpoint presented in the Scriptures....

    It should be evident from this discussion that Christians who have been enlightened by God's Word do not need to make these decisions simply on the basis of personal whim or emotion. They can consider the divine principles recorded in the Scriptures and use these in making personal decisions as they look to God for direction, trusting him and putting their confidence in the future that he has in store for those who love him.

    The official view remained until the March 15, 1980 Watchtower considered the question of congregational action towards someone who accepted an organ transplant. Here are some excerpts:

    .... It may be argued.... that organ transplants are different from cannibalism since the "donor" is not killed to supply food.... Clearly, personal views and conscientious feelings vary on this issue of transplantation.... While the Bible specifically forbids consuming blood, there is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding the taking in of other human tissue. For this reason, each individual faced with making a decision on this matter should carefully and prayerfully weigh matters and then decide conscientiously what he or she could or could not do before God. It is a matter for personal decision.... The congregation judicial committee would not take disciplinary action if someone accepted an organ transplant.

    The June 22, 1982 Awake! reiterated this position, stating:

    The Witnesses do not feel that the Bible comments directly on organ transplants; hence, decisions regarding cornea, kidney, or other tissue transplants must be made by the individual Witness.

    This is quite a flip-flop, going from the view that organ transplants are cannibalism and akin to murder, to it being a personal decision. Where is the guiding hand of God in all this?

    There is not a word mentioned that this was a change of understanding with respect to the ideas presented in the earlier articles. Nor does the 1980 Watchtower article on transplants mention a word about the earlier views. In fact the 1930-1985 Watchtower Publications Index does not even list the 1967 Watchtower article. This is, in effect, changing history to suit current priorities. How many were injured or disfellowshipped because of following the "leading of men?"

    I worry about the people who perhaps died as a result of not getting a needed transplant. Why are issues like this ignored and brushed under the carpet? I know someone who died as a result of not getting an organ transplant. He was afraid of being disfellowshipped.

    How can I believe that the faithful and discreet slave is God's channel when they make flip-flop decisions like this?


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    (0 recommendations so far) Message 4 of 10 in Discussion
    From: BenSent: 27/06/2002 15:32

    Teen:

    Thank you for your kind words and I appreciate your thoughts in your post.

    Some haunting words: "the true religion must measure up in all these respects and its teachings must all be in full harmony with Gods Word." From the Truth book, page 130. See below:

    From the Kingdom Come book: " But now in our 20th century, we have come to the time for harvest"a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels"!Matthew 13:24-30, 36-39." The twentieth century has come and gone and this prediction did not come true. This was not a statement made by some over anxious publisher wanting the end to come but it came through the official channel of the faithful and discreet slave.

    See also:

    "Just as Jesus prophecies regarding Jerusalem were fulfilled within the life span of the generation of the year 33 C.E., so his prophecies regarding "the time of the end" will be fulfilled within the life span of the generation of 1914." W84 5/15 p. 7 That went out of the window in 1995.

    If I were to make mistakes on that scale as a weather forecaster (which I am not), I would not only be fired but probably tarred and feathered as well! (smile)

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 5 of 10 in Discussion
    From: ForeverYoungSent: 29/06/2002 04:26
    In response to your statement, Those of "other faiths" do not worship the Creator, Jehovah, as you well know. They worship the Creation, Jesus or their own false gods as did those in Bible times. As Jehovah truthfully states, you either worship him or you don't. Simple as that! He sets the rules, and if YOU choose not to obey them, that is YOUR choice! We live in a society today, as you also know, that everyone wants to do "their own thing" and still reap the same rewards. It doesn't work that way, for if it did, why bother serving any God? Jehovah knows everyone of us on the earth, inside and out, and if we can't or won't subject ourselves to him, that is OUR choice. We are afterall the "Son's and Daughter's of a King", and we should ALL start acting like it!

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 6 of 10 in Discussion
    From: BenSent: 29/06/2002 07:51

    Hello, Young:

    ** In response to your statement, Those of "other faiths" do not worship the Creator, Jehovah, as you well know. They worship the Creation, Jesus or their own false gods as did those in Bible times. **

    Are you aware that there are other religions that do not teach the trinity? Are you aware that most of Russells ideology and theology came from the Seventh Day Adventists?

    ** As Jehovah truthfully states, you either worship him or you don't. Simple as that! He sets the rules,**

    Did he set the rule about transplants? About blood fractions? (smile)

    ** We live in a society today, as you also know, that everyone wants to do "their own thing" and still reap the same rewards**

    (smiling) This statement of yours reflects a general attitude that is very prevalent among JWs. They cannot abide the thought that someone who is not totally immersed in their routine with all of its prohibitions and restrictions could possibly gain life as well! I used to use this illustration when giving a particular public talk:

    --There is no other human besides yourself qualified to pass judgment on your motives. So lets make quick check here. You are out in field service on a particularly unpleasant day and you happen to pass by your brothers house and you see him out in the yard drinking a beer in front of his smoking BBQ pit. What do you feel? Sadness at his not being responsible in fulfilling his duties as a publisher of the good news or are you angry at him? You know which emotion you feel, dont you?

    Have you any idea of how many guilty looks I would see from those honest enough to search their hearts on the matter? Do you see a lesson there?

    ** Jehovah knows everyone of us on the earth, inside and out, and if we can't or won't subject ourselves to him, that is OUR choice**

    I agree with that statement. Why subject ourselves to humans when we can subject ourselves to God? Do we perhaps need that human recognition and approval to validate our commitment to God? Why? Remember that Jehovah is a jealous God who will not forever tolerate someone standing between his children and himself.

    ** . We are afterall the "Son's and Daughter's of a King", and we should ALL start acting like it! **

    I agree with you on this also. Interestingly the Society does not, however. According to WTBS theology, you are a son or daughter only if you are of the anointed. The rest of us are only friends of God. I applaud your courage to do your own thinking on this. Thank you for your comments.

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far)Delete Message 7 of 10 in Discussion
    From: applebeeSent: 29/06/2002 07:59
    All religion has wrong teachings it has to do with mans limited knowledge. I think what Peter says in Act 10:3435 "That ,God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." I think we all have wrong ideas and these wrong ideas are not the basis for adverse judgement unless the lead us to harmful acts that God condemns. The Identifying sign that Jesus gave to know who are really his followers is LOVE. John 13:35"By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." I think it is the hieght of presumption to think your group is the only one that fit that description. One could only make that judgement correctly if he had absolute knowledge. The apostle John wrote the most about God's love and clearly shows that this the obligation of all who accept Christ, John 3:16. Love seeks the good of ones brother and is not harsh or demanding but good and kind, to all. This is not easy but a necessary if we want to recieve God's love. I know in the imperfect flesh we will never measure up perfectly it is an impossiblity but it is something that all those are required to strive toward if they wish to remain recipients of God great love. Many religions work at trying to practice this love, they preach it and they have different ways of expressing it, they as a group often fail or fall short in different ways,.. I don't think God is going to save any organizations, but I do think he is going to collect out of these groups different ones that have tried to a show Christ like love even if there group and even they themselves have wrong Ideas(parable of the wheat and the weeds). God isn't looking to save the Smartest people but the humble and loving ones who put faith in Him and His Son(faith in a particular organization not necessary, I've never read that in the Bible). Many religions want you to believe they are the true faith, that's how they keep you comming to their meetings and get you to support them and bend to their authority. In high control groups, often they will use guilt to get you to not question them, they play a sorta mind game with the gulible that keep them in their grip of control. They also make people feel that if you or anybody else questions them that these people are wicked for doing so and that their motives are very bad. This makes persons that are in those religions to afraid to ever question them, infact it makes them terrified to do so. Many pastors have such a control on their flock that some have coined the term "Mind control" nobody is allowed to question their authority if they do,.. they are cast out as wicked and condemned of God, and nobody in the group is allowed to listen to them for fear they may suffer the same fate and loose God's favor. This sad to say has gotten many Christians into becoming slaves of men and not God. u I don't think anybody has a monoply on the Truth. Jesus said to keep on searching and we will find.

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 8 of 10 in Discussion
    From: ForeverYoungSent: 29/06/2002 09:55

    A lot of your comments on "picking" apart statements made for those who have been faithful to Jehovah and his Organization here on earth is very disturbing. It leads me to believe from your comments that you do believe some of what we have been instructed thru Jehovah's Organization and the rest you still question to this day.

    As regards organ transplants and blood infractions - if Jehovah doesn't want us to use these - he will in due time reveal this to us - he always does! Just as you mentioned re Pastor Russell making statements based on what another religion believed. So what - Jehovah once again - in his time revealed new truths to us. That was then and this is now. It's time to move on!

    As regards other religions not teaching the trinity - so what! They still don't worship the ONLY true God, Jehovah! And if you went to the District Convention this summer, a definate statement was made and I quote: "If you don't attend all meetings, you will not make it!" Wonder what that means???

    As far as your illustration goes (and not a very good one at that) re a brother drinking a beer on his front lawn, is really none of your business, as you don't know whether he has taken the day off or not. It isn't a good illustration at all for all it shows is, that you judge people for what you see. And as I last recall - no human has ever been able to read anothers humans heart! It wouldn't affect the way I saw that person at all. Simply put, I'd wave and ask him when's the bar-b-que? If there are any quilty looks there - it should be your own for being so judgemental!

    And as for your correction regarding us being "Son's and Daughter's of a King", the statement was made during a talk given at our Circuit Assembly last Fall. Did you fail to hear that comment, or were you not at that assembly? And for your information, I don't need your applaude - for this is not my personal opinion. From the way you are speaking - you have either not been in the truth very long - or it seems you try to discourage others, which leads me to believe you aren't attending the meetings regularly. Enough said - (though it seems you do need to do more research)!

    "Just JW,s" < [email protected]> wrote:
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    New Message on Just JW,s

    What makes a so-called Christian religion false?

    Reply
    RecommendMessage 6 in Discussion
    From: Ben

    Hello, Young:

    ** In response to your statement, Those of "other faiths" do not worship the Creator, Jehovah, as you well know. They worship the Creation, Jesus or their own false gods as did those in Bible times. **

    Are you aware that there are other religions that do not teach the trinity? Are you aware that most of Russells ideology and theology came from the Seventh Day Adventists?

    ** As Jehovah truthfully states, you either worship him or you don't. Simple as that! He sets the rules,**

    Did he set the rule about transplants? About blood fractions? (smile)

    ** We live in a society today, as you also know, that everyone wants to do "their own thing" and still reap the same rewards**

    (smiling) This statement of yours reflects a general attitude that is very prevalent among JWs. They cannot abide the thought that someone who is not totally immersed in their routine with all of its prohibitions and restrictions could possibly gain life as well! I used to use this illustration when giving a particular public talk:

    --There is no other human besides yourself qualified to pass judgment on your motives. So lets make quick check here. You are out in field service on a particularly unpleasant day and you happen to pass by your brothers house and you see him out in the yard drinking a beer in front of his smoking BBQ pit. What do you feel? Sadness at his not being responsible in fulfilling his duties as a publisher of the good news or are you angry at him? You know which emotion you feel, dont you?

    Have you any idea of how many guilty looks I would see from those honest enough to search their hearts on the matter? Do you see a lesson there?

    ** Jehovah knows everyone of us on the earth, inside and out, and if we can't or won't subject ourselves to him, that is OUR choice**

    I agree with that statement. Why subject ourselves to humans when we can subject ourselves to God? Do we perhaps need that human recognition and approval to validate our commitment to God? Why? Remember that Jehovah is a jealous God who will not forever tolerate someone standing between his children and himself.

    ** . We are afterall the "Son's and Daughter's of a King", and we should ALL start acting like it! **

    I agree with you on this also. Interestingly the Society does not, however. According to WTBS theology, you are a son or daughter only if you are of the anointed. The rest of us are only friends of God. I applaud your courage to do your own thinking on this. Thank you for your comments.

    View other groups in this category.



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    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 9 of 10 in Discussion
    From: BenSent: 29/06/2002 13:09

    Hello, Young:

    ** As regards organ transplants and blood infractions - if Jehovah doesn't want us to use these - he will in due time reveal this to us - he always does! Just as you mentioned re Pastor Russell making statements based on what another religion believed. So what - Jehovah once again - in his time revealed new truths to us. That was then and this is now. It's time to move on! **

    But you have already been told what to believe on these matters. Why do you mean by: "if Jehovah doesn't want us to use these - he will in due time reveal this to us"??? The Society has already told you Jehovahs mind on the matter!

    As for Russells incorporation of other religions beliefs into his own belief system you cannot accept these things as truths without acknowledging that God first gave those truths to these other religions. Jehovah revealed those truths to other religions long before we accepted these as our own. So, in fact, God did not reveal those things to Russell at allthey were revealed to someone else and he just took those ideas from those people.

    ** As regards other religions not teaching the trinity - so what! They still don't worship the ONLY true God, Jehovah! **

    You seemed to think it was significant that witnesses dont believe in the trinity. Why would it not go to other religions credit that they dont? Is it that you have a problem giving credit where credit is due? That they dont worship Jehovah is only your viewpoint, one that you have yet to demonstrate.

    ** And if you went to the District Convention this summer, a definate statement was made and I quote: "If you don't attend all meetings, you will not make it!" Wonder what that means??? **

    That means that once again rules are being put forth in the guise of being commands from God. Show me that statement in the Bible. You cannot, can you? So you have only demonstrated what I have contended all alongthey make their own rules. I call your attention to another statement of theirs, one that I posted earlier and that you can read for yourself: "Just as Jesus prophecies regarding Jerusalem were fulfilled within the life span of the generation of the year 33 C.E., so his prophecies regarding "the time of the end" will be fulfilled within the life span of the generation of 1914." W84 5/15 p. 7

    That statement was made in many talks at many conventions over the years. Wonder what that means? I think this and many other statements about things which never happened is reason enough not to be over concerned about further statements from the platforms. Dont you think?

    ** As far as your illustration goes (and not a very good one at that) re a brother drinking a beer on his front lawn, is really none of your business, **

    You missed the point entirely but you are free to draw whatever conclusion you wish.

    ** And as for your correction regarding us being "Son's and Daughter's of a King", the statement was made during a talk given at our Circuit Assembly last Fall. **

    You should have said so then. (smile) What this means now is that whoever said it has, by that statement, contradicted what the Society teaches on the matter. Allow me to point this out to you: "These with earthly prospects are declared righteous and enjoy peace with God even now, not as sons, but as friends of God, as was Abraham. What a favored position that is!James 2:23." W87 3/15 p. 15 ..par 17. So tell me again about these sons and daughters of the king

    ** . Did you fail to hear that comment, or were you not at that assembly?**

    Did you fail to read that article or perhaps you were not at the meeting that day?

    ** And for your information, I don't need your applaude - for this is not my personal opinion. **

    I apologize for thinking that you would have a personal opinion. I stand corrected.

    ** you have either not been in the truth very long - or it seems you try to discourage others, which leads me to believe you aren't attending the meetings regularly. Enough said - (though it seems you do need to do more research)! **

    You have no idea! (smile)

    Reply
    (0 recommendations so far) Message 10 of 10 in Discussion
    From: the_Crime_DoctorSent: 29/06/2002 13:19
    Hello Ben, "That means that once again rules are being put forth in the guise of being commands from God. Show me that statement in the Bible. " I think Heb. 10:25 reads similar. Hebrews 10:25
    not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.--NASB

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