Organisational Unity or Personal Integrity

by nicolaou 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Which do you consider to be more important, personal integrity or organisational unity?

    It is better, of course, to be united but behind what? We are all imperfect and our understanding of the scriptures differs.
    If, in my way of understanding, a Bible passage should differ from the Society’s definition, why should I subjugate my conscience to them? Because they are Jehovah’s organisation?

    For the sake of this discussion, let us assume that without any doubt, the WTB&TS are indeed the unique organisation that Jehovah God is using at this time and that the remnant, represented by the Governing Body, are the ‘faithful and discreet slave class’, the channel used by God to give us our food at the proper time.

    Even so, their authority would still be inferior to that of the Bible itself, the actual written Word of God.

    As an example, consider the account of David, Joab and Uriah.

    After committing adultery, King David, Jehovah’s anointed representative of His earthly organisation, twice instructed Uriah to go to his own home (an attempt to disguise Bath-Sheba’s pregnancy).

    Twice Uriah disobeyed Jehovah’s earthly representative, but on reading the Bible account [cited below], we would all approve of his actions.

    Joab on the other hand followed meticulously the instructions from the head of Jehovah’s organisation, this resulting in Uriah’s death, and he is universally and rightly condemned for his obedience.

    The disobedient man is praised, the obedient man disowned.
    Why?

    Because Uriah was obedient to principles that were higher than the instructions from the King and Joab proved disobedient to principles that were also higher than organisational directives.

    We MUST follow our conscience, even if we do believe in the mandate the Society claims for itself.

    Respectfully,
    Nic'

    *** Rbi8 2 Samuel 11:2-18 ***

    2 And it came about at the time of evening that David proceeded to rise from his bed and walk about on the rooftop of the king’s house; and from the rooftop he caught sight of a woman bathing herself, and the woman was very good in appearance. 3 Then David sent and inquired about the woman and someone said: “Is this not Bath-she'ba the daughter of E·li'am the wife of U·ri'ah the Hit'tite?” 4 After that David sent messengers that he might take her. So she came in to him and he lay down with her, while she was sanctifying herself from her uncleanness. Later she returned to her house.

    5 And the woman became pregnant. Consequently she sent and told David and said: “I am pregnant.” 6 At this David sent to Jo'ab, saying: “Send to me U·ri'ah the Hit'tite.” So Jo'ab sent U·ri'ah to David. 7 When U·ri'ah came to him, David began to ask how Jo'ab was getting along and how the people were getting along and how the war was getting along. 8 Finally David said to U·ri'ah: “Go down to your house and bathe your feet.” Accordingly U·ri'ah went out from the king’s house, and the king’s courtesy gift went out following him. 9 However, U·ri'ah lay down at the entrance of the king’s house with all the other servants of his lord, and he did not go down to his own house. 10 So they told David, saying: “U·ri'ah did not go down to his own house.” Upon that David said to U·ri'ah: “It is from a journey that you have come in, is it not? Why have you not gone down to your own house?” 11 At this U·ri'ah said to David: “The Ark and Israel and Judah are dwelling in booths, and my lord Jo'ab and the servants of my lord are camping on the face of the field, and I—shall I go into my own house to eat and drink and to lie down with my wife? As you are living and as your soul is living, I shall not do this thing!”
    12 Then David said to U·ri'ah: “Dwell here also today, and tomorrow I shall send you away.” Therefore U·ri'ah kept dwelling in Jerusalem on that day and the day following. 13 Further, David called him that he might eat before him and drink. So he got him drunk. Nevertheless, he went out in the evening to lie down on his bed with the servants of his lord, and to his own house he did not go down.

    14 And it came about in the morning that David proceeded to write a letter to Jo'ab and send it by the hand of U·ri'ah. 15 So he wrote in the letter, saying: “PUT U·ri'ah in front of the heaviest battle charges, and YOU men must retreat from behind him, and he must be struck down and die.”
    16 And it came about that while Jo'ab was keeping guard over the city he kept U·ri'ah put in the place where he knew that there were valiant men. 17 When the men of the city came on out and went fighting against Jo'ab, then some of the people, the servants of David, fell and U·ri'ah the Hit'tite also died.

    http://communities.msn.co.uk/altJehovahsWitnesses

  • trevor
    trevor

    When I was a Witness, I began to question certain anomalies in the movement and was advised that I was developing a "spirit of independence." I expected everything to add up and make sense, after all this is "the Truth" - isn't it?

    One senior brother of fifty years standing explained that the most important thing in the congregation was unity. It did not matter so much whether what we believed was accurate so long as we all believed the same. This did nothing to ease the nagging feeling I had, that the Emperor wore no clothes.

    Trevor

  • TR
    TR

    Similarly,

    If I work for a company, I follow their rules and guidelines. However, if I find that some of their rules to be unethical or illegal, I would bring this up to the management. I tell the management that I won't follow those rules. If the manager insists that I follow the rules in question, I will refuse. He may fire me or he might tell me to disregard said rules. If I'm not fired, now I have to deside whether or not to stay employed with a company that has questionable ethics.

    So, do I stay within the confines of the WTS or not? I choose to disassociate myself from the unethical rules and regulations of the WTS. Of course, If I decide to stay, the WTS will boot me anyway. Problem solved.

    Personal integrity wins.

    TR

    Edited by - TR on 8 March 2001 12:18:16

  • Jr
    Jr

    Hello,
    all of us know the basic principles and commands laid out in the scripture. One of the commands is not to commit "idolatry". That is exactly what we have done when we place the honor and obedience of the "Society" above or beside that of Jehovah. Note Jehovah's words, "When they placed their threshold next to my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they defiled my holy name by their detestable practices. So I destroyed them in my anger."(Ezekiel 43:7-9) Jehovah is incensed when we allow others to take his honor away. Well, we might say that we still worship Jehovah. But, the fact is Baal worship was practiced in Israel while under the direction and leadership of the kings of Israel. Idolatry can coexist with the worship of Jehovah. The Israelites did not abandon Jehovah completely. They included Baal worship because Baal was associated with prosperity. They wanted to gain riches along with their service to Jehovah.
    We have allowed "Mother" Bethel to dictate our beliefs and decisions, even when it conflicted with the bible. They told us not to talk to our family if they disfellowship them. That has no scriptural support.(please view the subject Shunning in 'Bible research-Mar 6) If someone shows us something in the bible that appears to be scriptural, we say, well I can't accept that. It doesn’t come from "Mother".
    We have been guilty of idolatry. This is a serious situation to be in. The question is, what do we do now? Hebrews 11:26,27 says, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." We were taught not to commit idolatry. Did we listen? Do we still call her "Mother" in our heart? What do we do now!!??

    JR

  • ianao
    ianao

    Jr said:

    We have been guilty of idolatry. This is a serious situation to be in. The question is, what do we do now?

    I personally don't do anything. THEY Get on with their lives.

    Jr, is it YOUR suggestion that they begin idolizing the "modern day servants" as the NEW "Mother" organization with Jehovah's "true blessing" (for real this time)?

    Or is your self-assertion blinding your eyes? Perhaps this is the same self-assertion that keeps the rank and file in the society. Fight fire with fire eh?

    Hey Jr, let's hear some more of that scripture that MANY MANY other "worldly religions" use to claim that THEY are the true religion.

    And please threaten everyone that if they don't agree with your percieved "truth" that God will destroy them. (Oh whoops, looks like you already threw that one out there didn't you?)

    Tell me, why must you millenialists always use fear tactics? Is the loving atmosphere created by fundamentalists THAT hard to break through?

  • ianao
    ianao
    We MUST follow our conscience, even if we do believe in the mandate the Society claims for itself.

    It's easy to "choose God over man" theoretically, but how can you be SURE that you are not choosing MAN again when your own conscience is flawed by human perception?

  • The Dredger
    The Dredger

    dredged!

    The disobedient man is praised, the obedient man disowned.
    Why?

    Damn fine question Nic! I'm surprised there were so few takers first time round so let's give it another shot.

    IMHO, the 'disobedient' man did the RIGHT thing, the obedient man erred. Simple as that.

    Don't we sometimes over-analyse?

  • Francois
    Francois

    There is a vast difference between unity and uniformity. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society has never known, or even suspected, the difference. Or if they did, cared.

    I wouldn't want the karma of the WTBTS for any amount of money.

    "It would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their necks and thrown into the sea..."

    You boys in Brooklyn enjoy what time you have left. Your days are at an end. And all that you have done, all the lives you've ruined, wasted, and taken - all done in modern times of rapidly increasing knowledge, insight, and understanding in the name of the great God who created you.

    As you are, so Hitler was, all that destruction performed in the cause of freedom, in the name of a great state.

    Francois

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