Hallo.
YOU WROTE:
If Armageddon happened right now (This very instant), and I
am certainly not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact I have
signifigant questions as to the claim that the organization
is god's channel, do you REALISTICALLY believe that I will be
saved from Jehovah's wrath? -- I've been to MANY KH meetings
where the speaker is constantly re-enforcing that very premise,
that "JW's are the only one's with a realistic hope of making
it through the big A"..
ME:
I DON'T KNOW. I'M NO-ONE TO SAY THAT.
Please do not try to put in my mouth words that i never
said and that i will never say.
YOU WROTE:
So, if you answer differs from what
I've heard many times from the podium, I'd love to hear your
explanation.
ME:
I'm trying to explain it since the beginning : WE ARE NOT
PERFECT AND WE MAKE MISTAKE (EVEN BIG SOMETIMES..AS PER SAUL)
When we state that someone will not pass the big A, we always
consider him as component of a organization and not as single
individual.
YOU WROTE:
If they are not god's channel, and you
view everyone that has sworn allegience to the organization as
the only one's that have a 'realistic' chance of being saved,
how do you think Jehovah will judge you?
ME:
I never said that! I do not know the answer to your question!
Would you explain it to me ?
Maybe you know how Yhwh will judge me ?
YOU WROTE:
I made an observation based on about 10 experiences I've had
over the years, where all of the JW's claim to be in unity
with one another (In fact, they boast of that fact!), and
all of them use the exact same reasons over and over again
for different things. Your organization makes the claim that
anyone not of the organization is part of satan's world, and
has no realistic hope of being 'hidden' in the day of Jehovah's
anger. Please compare my observation to your view of the world,
and tell me who appears to be passing judgement on who?
ME:
I believe you, but i kindly ask you to indicate me the magazines
to check the whole articles.
YOU WROTE:
Show me one example where Moses caused
someone to stumble and feel that Moses was not acting under
God's authority.
ME:
Are you stating that Moses did not make any mistake during
the time he guided Israel through the desert ?
I WROTE:
This story [Eunuc], on the contrary, support the idea that
we need a Organization. If not, why the Angel sent Philip to
explain the Bible? The Angel directly could explain the Bible
to the Eunuc. Moreover, why God did not let the Eunuc able to
understand the Bible by himself?
Why the first Christians recognized to need an Organization,
as you confirmed ?
YOU WROTE:
Again, I do not believe that you need an organization or a church.
ME:
I understood what you believe and what you do not believe,
but we should try to understand what GOD believe !.
So please answer my above questions!
YOU WROTE:
The church/organization is used as a tool to help you foster a
personal relationship with god, it is not nessecary for salvation.
ME:
This your opinion not supported by the bible accounts.
YOU WROTE:
Are you in some way stating that Jehovah is going to look at
our 'record' and say that he never spent time in Church/Kingdom Hall,
and because of that he is not worthy of my love, and will not be
hidden in my day of anger?
ME:
I'm not talking about KH. When i talk about Church i mean a
Organization of God not the building.
YOU WROTE:
I believe the JW's (as do I) believe
that Jehovah looks at an individuals heart condition, and that
alone is how Jehovah judges.
ME:
I belive that Yhwh will not only looks at the indivuduals
heart condition but will examine also our WORKS coming from heart.
Mat. 7:21
To be judged in a positive way we must obey to his written word..
as Hebrews 10:25! How could you obey to this verse if you do
not believe in a organized Church ?
Who organize these meetings ? What are you talking about
in these meetings ? How can you talk of meetings if you
believe that the religion is a individual question ?
YOU WROTE:
So, by stating that you need an
organization, you are stating that people in parts of this
world who do not worship in an organized fashion have no
chance of being hidden on Jehovah's day of anger?
Is that what you are stating?
ME:
I never stated that!
YOU WROTE:
Are you similairily stating that people who
do not go to church/Kingdom halls on a regular basis will not
be hidden in the day of Jehovah's anger?
ME:
I'm not the Judge! I never stated that!
YOU WROTE:
Are you stating that Jehovah's undeserved kindness and love
for us hinges on us belonging to a church/organization?
ME:
I'm stating that that Jehovah's undeserved kindness and love
for us hinges to <<do his will>>! And to do His will, we
must obey to his written word, so we must attend the meetings,
we must preach His word, we must teach to others...to do all
these things is necessary a Organized Church and God knows that!
YOU WROTE:
Could it be, like I said
before, that the 'orgainization' of which you speak is the
'organization' of people from all nations in all parts of the
world who believe in Jesus, and what he did for us?
ME:
Are you serious ? Do you really think that !
Do you really think these organizations are the Church of God?
Where is the fruit of the Spirit ?
They make wars one against one! Only that should make us
understand that is impossible!
But what about the command to preach the Kingdom of God?
What kind of secular organization is doing that?
What kind of Organization belive that God and only God will
solve our problems?
see Jer. 10:23
see Dan. 2:44
see Mat. 6:33
see Rev.21:3-4
We must not close our eyes to the reality. God had a own
people in the past, and He has a people now.
see Jer. 8:23
see Isa. 2:2
see Hos. 2:23
Act 15:14
Tit 2:14
Hebr. 8:10
Rev 18:4
YOU WROTE:
What I've observed (i'm not passing judgement on them, just
making an observation) from the mjority of JW's that I know,
they seem to be motivated more by 'fear of god' and peer
pressure than by faith. Those are NOT motivating factors that
cultivate faith, those are motivatiing factors that cultivate
works.
ME:
I'm sorry but this is not my reality! The mjority of JW's
that I know seem to be motivated by love.
YOU WROTE:
For example, why is there such a push within the organization
to go out in field service?
ME:
Because it is a command of Jesus...see Mat. 28:19
YOU WROTE:
I've been to meetings where they
'encourage' all the brothers and sisters to go out in the
field ministry, and in fact, they even have defined hours
for various pioneer (aux, special, regular) levels. They then
follow that up with 'Wouldn't it be wonderful if you were out
in the door-to-door' ministry when the big A starts, or 'maybe
you can encourage some who are not active in the ministry work
any longer to re-join our efforts'.
ME:
What's wrong in that ??
YOU WROTE:
Those seem to me to be peer pressure and fear tactics. Can
you explain to me how they are not?
ME:
You stated that! Not me! So YOU have to explain how they
are not!
For me is everything clear! They just encourage to obey at
a command of Jesus.
YOU WROTE:
Oh, and would you explain James 2:25 to me? How can someone
be claimed Righteous if they practice sexual imorrality?
ME:
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Anyway you can find the answer easily through our pubblications.
YOU WROTE:
Show me in the bible where you MUST be a member of a church
to be saved.
If you mean the actual people of God....:
Act 15:14
Tit 2:14
Hebr. 8:10
Rev 18:4
The first thing is to obey to the commands of Jesus.
And the first Christians understood that to do that, it was
necessary a Church. Take also note that they was guided by
the Holy Spirit. So if they considered necessary to organize
themself in a Church, it is clear the The Holy Spirit guided
that choice. See Act 15:28
YOU WROTE:
Show me in those two above scriptues where it says that the
following REQUIREMENT was to form a church? -- It clearly
states what the REQUIREMENTS are, and I see no mention of a
church being REQUIRED there!!!!
ME:
In Act 15 everybody can check that the Holy Spirit guided
the first Christians in their choices.
So if they considered necessary to organize
themself in a Church, it is clear the The Holy Spirit guided
that choice.
YOU WROTE:
Oh, and here is an interesting question, Are JW's allowed to
eat meat from that of strangled animals?
ME:
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Anyway you can find the answer easily through our pubblications.
YOU WROTE:
If you are a missionary in a third world country, going
door-to-door may be your only alternative. But here (In the
USA anyway) there are many other avenues to get the word out.
And I believe that is what the bible is saying, get the word
out. When the bible was written there was no other way to get
the word out, now there are. Do you agree with me that going
door-to-door is to get the word out about the good news?
ME:
I agree with you that there is not only door-to-door.
We use phone,Internet,letters,e-mails,NewsGroups, ect..ect..
But YOU have NO ELEMENTS to say that door-to-door is a
figurative way to preach !
The Church of God has to preach ALSO door-to-door as stated by
Act 20:20.
Obviously we PREFER to go door-to-door beacause we prefer
to have a personal contact with the people.
YOU WROTE:
I'm not quite sure how you claim that the nation of Israel
was a visible organization of god, in the same way that you
are making claim to the JW organization. First, the entire
nation of Israel was brought into a covenant by god, no-one
certainly was required to get baptized into God's good graces,
and more importantly, during that time, Jehovah DID NOT USE
the 'organized' nation of Israel to do his work, he chose
individuals to do his work.
ME:
Not always single individuals. But groups of individials inside
Israel.
See Cheatiti, Merariti, Ferariti, (Leviti)!
YOU WROTE:
Now you are claiming to be in a covenant with god you must
'choose' to be one with god (unlike the nation of Israel)
and that god is using the organization to do his will
(again, different from when he picked Israel as his nation).
Exactly what similiarities exist between your organization
today and the nation of Israel?
ME:
The ancient Israel was not loyal to his commands.
So he promised what you can read in Haggai 2:7.
YOU WROTE:
I can be true to my conscience and still have the full support
of my friends and family, even if my conscience disagrees
with someone else's interpretation over matters. I'm not viewed
as spiritually weak, but as an individual that has a different
view/interpretation. JW's, on the other hand, seem to be
viewed as spiritually weak if they have different views,
and are told to be careful of association with people spiritually
weak, therefor, if a JW has a different conscientious
interpretation of something than that of the GB, their
relationships with friends and family may and due suffer
because of it. I am free to express my conscience, while the
JW's fear losing their friends and family if they express
theirs. Can you explain to me how this is freedom (The freedom
as expressed in the bible, never shall you be 'yoked' in the
slavery of the law again) , or have I misinterpreted what I've
heard at the KH meetings, and read in your literature? If I
have misinterpreted this, can you explain to me how it really works?
ME:
I'm sorry but we are not talking about that. As i told you in my
previous message i do not want to talk about GB, 144.000 ect..
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Only after have understood this point, we can answer to your
right questions!
YOU WROTE:
Jesus made a covenant with all that call his name, and believe
in him. Why is that covenant limited to only the JW's?
ME:
No, no, no! It is not complete!
<<Jesus made a covenant with all that call his name, and believe
in him and MAKE HIS WILL and believe in HIS WORDS>>. Mt 7:21
Now sounds better.
So the covenant is limited to all the people that make his
will (included mt 28:19) and believe in his words (included mt 24:14).
I think we should understand first if God required an
Organized Church. Only after that, we could speak about the
identity of this Church.
YOU WROTE:
Ok, 1 question about this then. Do you believe that the 144,000
is a literal number, however the part in that scripture that
refers to the male/virgin/jew is figurative? Yes/No?
ME:
I'm sorry but we are not talking about that. As i told you in my
previous message i do not want to talk about GB, 144.000 ect..
This is not the subject of the thread.
The subject is: << Does God require a organized Church? >>
Only after have understood this point, we can answer to your
right questions!
I ask you once more to forgive me for my late answers!
Bye
Perspicacia