A Question I've Always Wondered About!

by patricia 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • patricia
    patricia

    I've often wondered about God's promise to Hagar, Ishmael"s mother in Genesis 16:10 and 17:20 where He promises that he will greatly multiply her descendants making them too numerous to count, and also telling Abraham that He would also bless Ishmael and "he would certainly produce twelve chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation". Verse 25 also mentions that Ishmael was circumcised which would make him part of the covenant made between Jehovah and Abraham.

    In Genesis 21:13, after telling Abraham to drive Hagar and Ishmael out of his camp as Sarah told him to do, God promised Abraham that he would make a nation of Ishmael too, because he was also Abraham's son. Then this is reiterated in Genesis 21:18 after Ishmael was cast out of Abraham's camp, Jehovah listens to Ishmael's voice and again promises Hagar that he would make a great nation of Ishmael. Nothing is ever spoken in the Bible that Jehovah's blessing was ever taken away from Ishmael or his descendants.

    So, does this make the Arab nation also God's nation? Has the society ever given any explanation as to what happened to this second great nation? When we consider Isaac and Ishmael were half brothers can that put a different interpretation on what is happening in the middle east?

    Edited by - Patricia on 7 July 2002 20:34:10

  • joannadandy
    joannadandy

    Hmm...very interesting, I wish I had some answers, but I have never heard anything about it...not from JW standpoint anyway. BUt intersting post none the less...maybe God just likes to rile people up...loving indeed! Kind of reminds me of two football teams both praying to God that they win, and one of them must be liked by God more because their can only be one winner...

    Edited by - joannadandy on 7 July 2002 19:52:36

  • raven101
    raven101

    I've wondered about the same thing, I don't know what it might be but I'm sure the wts has some weak-ass_inine reasoning as to why Islaam doesn't qualify as a 'gods' sanctioned religion.

    Personally I don't think any of them do.

    Hopefully someone who has heard the 'reasoning' (ha ha) will pick up on this thread and enlighten us.

    raven101

  • Bang
    Bang

    It's about promise and labour.

    Hagar was highminded and contemptuous of Sarai because of her effort (remind you of anyone?). Being good as He is, God blessed Ishmael also.

    Abraham didn't drive out Hagar; He reminded Sarai that it was within her power to deal with Hagar as she pleased - Sarai dealt harshly with her (I suppose we do it somewhat to jws and others who are contemptuous and self-righteous by their own effort - to an extent). Anyway, the kingdom is not something that is bought and sold. Hagar of course had no right to be like that.

    Isaac is the fruit that comes by promise (without payment) - this then is the truly Good News. Jws don't tell of the Good News - their news comes with an IF.

    As to the Arab nation, that's a broad consideration. Are Ishmael's spiritual descendants actually the Arab's?

    Bang

    Edited by - Bang on 7 July 2002 23:30:47

  • Lieu
    Lieu

    They are all related....Abraham was from Tamar...his fleshly brothers were called 'Syrians'...he and his sons sent their servants back to his family living in Mesopotamia (actually, the region later known as Babylon/Nineveh) to get wives.

    He had all sorts of kids...i think thirteen other sons after Sarah died. Then there are Lots progeny.(Abraham's nephew)....then there are Ishmael's, Esau's...and the list goes on.

    They are all related and each one can rightly claim Abraham as their founding father.... he is the "father of nations" as his new name (Abraham) from God depicted.

    Their was only one son who would be heir to the specific promise...but there were lots of other sons who also were given their fair share of an inheritance....why?, because they also were his kids.

    God reminded the Israelites not to take Seir or Moabite territory when leaving Egypt...why? Because he had given Seir to the sons of Esau and he implicitly stated they were their "brothers".

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Good question!

    17:20 (expansion of 16:10) promises 2 things:

    1) Ishmael will have 12 rulers in his blood line (as shown in 25:13-16; and thus fulfilled);

    2) Ishmael is/will be blessed. Moffatt translates:"...As for Ishmael...I have a blessing for him, I will make him fruitful..." NAB reads " As for Ishmael...I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile..." The comma vs. period between "him" and "I" makes a big difference. If the period is correct, we take the blessing as separate from the fruitfulness. If the comma is correct, we take the blessing as shown in the fertility (and thus include 21:13, 18). This problem of "asseverative" vs "conjunctive" is very common in translation. It is well known that neither Hebrew nor Greek have punctation marks in the original Biblical languages, so this decision is SOLELY due to translator/theological preference.

    It would be "easier" for many to accept the conjunctive sense, so that the current large Arab population would in and of itself prove the fulfillment of this blessing. Nothing more would be expected.

    But what if the asseverative sense is taken? Then there would remain an expansive Biblical blessing upon Arabs that would mark them also a God-selected people. Paul's remarks at Gal 4:22-31 seem to exclude that possibility: Hagar (with her Ishmaelite offspring) are slaves (hardly what we would consider a blessing).

    Perhaps the original blessing on Abram is most telling: "...and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Gn 12:3) IMO there is no continuing blessing upon either Arabs OR Jews. God has lived up to His promises to each group, and it is up to them (as well as all others) to take the next step. That next step is to accept the ultimate fulfiller of God's blessing on all mankind.

    Not a JW, but definitely a Christian,

    Craig

    PS: Patricia, welcome to this group!

  • Bang
    Bang

    It's rather clear that spiritual sonship is different - as Jesus spoke of.

    And it's also clear that when we're talking about giving material goods, the 'brothers' who should recieve them are also material.

    Who can honestly say that spiritual brothers should be the family that recieves worldly goods? God created the earth to be shared by those who dwell there, and the kingdom of heaven with those who dwell there - AT LEAST.

    Bang

  • Scully
    Scully

    Patricia:

    Have a look at this picture and then tell me who you think "really" has God's favour!

    Love, Scully

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    patricia,

    For me, the main lesson to be learned in that story is that, like humans, God practices nepotism.

    Farkel

  • BugParadise
    BugParadise

    Hi Patricia,

    Interesting topic! What period of time do you suppose the Book of Obadiah is talking about? Is it a future fufillment? It speaks of Esau and the decendents being cut off. Sorry about the thee's and thou's but it was the Bible I had open on the PC at the time

    The Book of Obadiah

    The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

    Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.

    The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation [is] high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?

    Though thou exalt [thyself] as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

    If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave [some] grapes?

    How are [the things] of Esau searched out! [how] are his hidden things sought up!

    All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee [even] to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, [and] prevailed against thee; [they that eat] thy bread have laid a wound under thee: [there is] none understanding in him.

    Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise [men] out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?

    And thy mighty [men], O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

    For [thy] violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

    Obad:1:11: In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou [wast] as one of them.

    But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.

    Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid [hands] on their substance in the day of their calamity;

    Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

    For the day of the LORD [is] near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

    For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, [so] shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

    But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

    And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].

    And [they of] the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and [they of] the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin [shall possess] Gilead.

    And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel [shall possess] that of the Canaanites, [even] unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which [is] in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.

    And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

    ~Bugs

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