by In_between_days 8 Replies latest jw friends
Hi All,
I was wondering if anyone would have any comments or responses to this question:
If one was never baptised, but is however, an active apostate, (Contributing to these boards, conversing with other apostates ect) is that a reasonable cause for JW shunning, from family? This is a question i'd love an answer to, and if anyone has any Watchtower answers to this question, i'd love it if you could provide them, i'd really appreciate it.
Hi IBD. I'm in the same sort of situation. I have not been shunned. Shunning requires disfellowshipping which requires baptism. However, you could still be deemed as "unwholesome fellowship" which puts their "spiritual well-being" in jeopardy. In light of that it might have the same effect on relatives. I recommend keeping your "apostate" thoughts to this board and not family!
LucidSky
Lucid's right, I'm afraid. Doesn't it strike you that the JWs must regard their "spiritual health" as being pretty sickly if it won't tolerate any sort of questioning at all? This doesn't seem to comport well with the idea that Jesus' followers were to be "always ready to make a defense...," and it doesn't seem to reflect the spirit of the Boreans, either who were "examining the scriptures constantly," to assure themselves that what they were being told was true.
To my mind, the religion of Jesus is robust, bursting with health and energy, strong, unassailable, vigorous, hearty, and potent. It should stand any examination by anyone. Its defenders should be confident, secure, assured, fearless, and bold. But what do we find instead as it relates to JWs?
We find an organization and a membership timid and afraid, insecure in their beliefs, unable to withstand even the mildest examination, fearful even to attempt making a defense of their beliefs.
We find Rutherford, in "Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose," challenging the clergy one and all to debate in public forum. And when the clergy refused, Rutherford said it was a sign that they refused to debate because they knew they were wrong and had not Jehovah's backing - and that they behaved just as had the priests of Baal.
Well.
What can be said about the approach urged upon its members by Jehovah's Witnesses leaders now? It seems obvious that the governing body is aware of the weakness of its arguments, the invalidity of its logic, and the futility of attempting to defend it against an informed debater. Thus, the GB and all it's attorneys have refused my invitation to debate it in any public forum they choose, at any reasonable time: and I mean all of them together against just me...just little ol' me.
What I'd really love to do is to get needle-nose Jaracz alone on the stage where his utter humiliation could be recorded for posterity. But it ain't gonna happen. He has neither the guts nor the truth to back him.
Poor, weak, thin-bloded, little religious cult; just like every other bully that walks, there's a coward under all that bluster.
-francois
I agree with Lucid about the "spiritual health" in danger bit...
I agree with Francois whole heartedly about them being afraid and cowardly..
I too, am a person who was never baptized (in fact, I only studied for a short time with a couple of them).. I became friends with a few, and I feel sooooo bad for them that they are 'enslaved' that I want to help them... They, of course, have no idea I am participating in this board, and we do still communicate.
Anyway, every once in a while one of my friends will drop off a WT to me, and I found this little tidbit in one recently: (Mar 1, 2002, pg 11)
Note the section "Beware of decoy lights", specifically the last sentence!!!
And then I found this in their own reasoning book (a direct quote from the bible no less):
This section of the reasoning book deals with scriptures the 'encourage' those being persecuted for doing god's will:
Note the 4th paragraph on page 119, quoting from the bible at Phil 1:27-29
I asked my friends about this, "huh? You mean an apostate can cause you to lose faith, and truth in Jehovah?" They both said, "Oh yes!".. I then showed them their reasoning book, and opened their bible to Phil 1:27-29. I asked why they were afraid of apostates, as it clearly shows here in the bible, and obviously their own leaders understand this to be true as well, since they published the same scriptures in the reasoning book.
No answer form either one, so I then read ALOUD the scripture.. "... and in NO RESPECT being afraid of your opponents..."
Then I read from the WT, "... our confidence in Jehovah's word the truth, the bible, can be weakened and our faith will die"..
I attested to the fact that I have been to meetings (with them) and I heard all the apostate warnings, so I know they are taught to fear apostates. I said could they reconsile that fear with the scriptures above?
Again, no answer, and I let the matter drop.. Hopefully, if/when the time comes, I'll be able to use that scripture again :-)
Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 29 July 2002 7:58:38
Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 29 July 2002 7:59:30
Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 29 July 2002 8:4:44
Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 29 July 2002 8:14:54
. I recommend keeping your "apostate" thoughts to this board and not family!
Thanks Lucidsky, I know this is true, but I have already made it very clear to my family that I am opposed to this organisation. There is no sign of shunning, and now I do not mention my "Individual thinking" unless something watchtower related is mentioned to me. If my family feel the need to talk about their organisation even though I have specifically asked them not to, then I feel the need to retaliate.
Even though I want to take what I know and shout it from the rooftops, I am worried if I persist in my views, my family may indeed regard me as "Unwholesome association" - what would an elders advice be to them on this issue?
opened their bible to Phil 1:27-29. I asked why they were afraid of apostates, as it clearly shows here in the bible, and obviously their own leaders understand this to be true as well, since they published the same scriptures in the reasoning book.Thanks for that, this is very helpful.
Doesn't it strike you that the JWs must regard their "spiritual health" as being pretty sickly if it won't tolerate any sort of questioning at all? This doesn't seem to comport well with the idea that Jesus' followers were to be "always ready to make a defense...," and it doesn't seem to reflect the spirit of the Boreans, either who were "examining the scriptures constantly," to assure themselves that what they were being told was true.
It certainly does, I don't think JW's realise how much they are proving to me that they are utterly brainwashed when they flatly refuse to discuss a subject. For instance, I have many a time brought up subjects discussed on this board, and asked them if they are true. They go on about apostates being liars, and I ask, "so it's a lie then?" and they do not give me a yes or no answer (in other words, it's true), they are more interested in knowing where the information came from rather than defending themselves.
Keep the comments coming, please everyone, this is very important to me.
ok, I had a conversation with my mother today that left me very frustrated. She had asked me in her latest letter if I wanted to come to the assembely, and I was a little annoyed as we have both agreed not to do this, as I have already told her that I am not interested. So I said basically no way, and refered her to a couple of media websites that deal with the child abuse problems.
She called and asked me not to send her anything apostate driven as she knows the apostates pushed for this issue to be on current affairs programs and apostates are twisted liars. She asked me did'nt I think the media would be a bit one - sided, and I said sure, but the disturbing thing is, the documentary shows PROOF that the cover up is a reality, for instance........ and that was when she said, "Stop, I dont want to hear it".
She told me apostates are manipulating me. She knows I am involved in this forum, she asks me and I tell the truth, I don't like to lie or mislead my parents. I tried to reason with her about the child abuse victims, and the trauma they have gone through, and it is unfair to generalise them as twisted, but she just said "Allegedly, thats what the've gone through". It is so disturbing that JW's will defend the WT so extremely to the point of accusing child abuse victims as lying apostates.
We talked about this a bit, and she said that these sort of issues always come up, influenced by apostates, and it's one thing after another, but nothing ever comes of it. She said if it was my own thoughts and personal opinions on the org she would listen, instead of apostate driven stuff, which really annoyed me as I have had several long conversations about these very views many times. It is so hard to remain calm when my own mother will not even acknowledge traumas which I symphasise so much with e.g - child abuse.
It was even harder, when she said "At the end of this system, what will be your standing?" which meant basically, that she thinks I am going to die. I dont think she knows how much this upsets me. My own parents think I am doomed.
We discussed so many things, and shes one of these JW's who will defend EVERYTHING, even 1975. It was apparently just something JW's made up, the WT did'nt say it was going to happen, they just pointed to it, that's all. Taze Russel did not predict that the end of system of things was 1914, and was not involved in scandals, he did not form any sect called "Russelites". I told her that is exactly what I have found to be true in over 20 encyclopedias and books on world religion, but she said if I look up a book called "jehovahs Witnesses in the 20th century" I will find out all the unbiased info on Jw's. So I ask "Who's it written by?" and she sais "Jehovahs Witnesses" at which point I started giggling, which I feel bad about, and the conversation ended shortly thereafter.
The thing that gets me is my mother is very smart. She has a genius IQ. And this is the type of stuff she sais.
What gets me the most is SHE is accusing ME of being brainwashed. I try to tell her, that no, I do not believe everything I read on the forum, that I am fully capable of analysing things myself, and am under no pressure whatsoever to conform to anyones views on this forum, but she will not listen. I am the apostates puppet now. This is so frustrating.
This is so hard to take, I love my mother and never realised the extent of her defendist attitude until now. Maybe I should just drop it?
Whos been through a simailar situation?
Dear In-Between-Days,
Okay, so your Mom won't listen to things you tell her about the "Apostate" boards, but she will listen to you and what you have to say. This is a great opportunity for you, from where I'm sitting, because at least there is some communication. She has tied your hand behind your back by not listening to what you say about the "Apostates" but that is not a real great handicap. Just don't ever bring "Apostates" into it.
The next time your Mom asks about your standing at judgement day, tell her, "I think I'll be just fine Mom, because I have never molested innocent children or have been party to covering up a case of child abuse."
Write to the UN and ask them about the WTBTS involvement, and then leave the letter lying on the dining room table.
Talk about how concerned you are for the child abuse victims that have nowhere to go now that SilentLambs has been labeled "Apostate." Ask her if she would ever help you set up a similar site within the JWs, and if she would be willing to man the hotline.
Tell her that you don't understand why all of those dates have come and gone without anything happening. What did happen on those dates? Why were they special if they were based on Biblical calculations? Ask her to explain again what a generation means again. Tell her you keep getting the definitions confused because for years they kept saying 70-80 years.
Ask her if the Watchtower is afraid of paying Caesars things to Caesar, and then ask her why they changed from meal tickets to the contribution system? Is she sure it wasn't to avoid having to pay sales taxes?
In other words, keep challenging her and her beliefs. Make her defend her position to you. Don't take everything at face value and maybe she will begin to question things too. Every chance you get, put a seed of doubt in her mind.
Be loving. Be kind. Be gracious. But ask plenty of questions that she can't answer. Don't directly confront her. That won't work. It will only make her circle the wagons. Instead, use psychology to get her to begin to doubt, to reason, and to question.
The book "Understanding Mind Control Among Jehovah's Witnesses" by Randall Watters is a really good resource for understanding the cult mindset and how to approach people who are locked in it. I highly recommend it.
Tammy
