This is a reply to Logical. Hope it helps.I agree Jesus is more than human, but he is certainly much better (qualitative) than the angels, for to what angels did God the Father ever say.....Col.1-2
Jesus is Jehovah, consisting of three persons, the Son Ghost and the Father. Did the Almighty lie when he said "I alone stretched forth the heavens and the earth?" Is he wrong to say, "Aside from Me there is no other Savior, Rock, Redeemer, Holy One.....no not one!"
OT Jehovah speaks of their unity "Come let us make man in our image." The NT delineates the persons and functions within that unity. To what angel did Jehovah ever say, "If you do not acknowledge my Son, you do not have me." We are all adopted sons, but Jesus is God from God, just as an elephant offspring would be an elephant.
In the end, Log, your argument against the deity of Christ is in spite of your lack of understanding the concept, not because you understand so well that you can see where its logic fails. Your supposed counterpoints are just straw-man arguments, lacking any substance.
I could not do as well a job putting forth your position as you do, but I know your position better than you know mine. For instance, if you understood (not necessarily agreed with) the reasons for our belief on this issue, you would not have asked that last question which implies that we somehow think that at one time Jehovah was not Jesus, but rather later Jehovah became a part of Jesus and the Spirit. We believe, and I'm sorry but you should know this, that Jesus said and meant that before Abraham was, "I AM". Boy, the Pharisees sure understood that direct claim to deity and hence eternal existence. Jesus is the same yesterday (eternity), today, and forever.
It is your theology which makes man true and God a liar. Jesus is somehow Michael first, then He becomes Jesus, and then Michael once again. Of course, there is (present tense) only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus. Not the arch angel Michael, Jesus. He took on humanity, but did not consider it robbery to retain his deity at the same time. That is certainly what the virgin birth is all about, God begetting a Son full of deity to become man.
He created, he holds all things by his power, he can be in more than one place at one time, knows our hearts, forgives sins, shall be the Judge of mankind, has the name higher than all names, is the same Lord of Lords, King of Kings, First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, Savior, Rock, Redeemer, Holy One, that the OT Jehovah claims is only found in himself and no other, the same Jah who declares that he will never share His glory, honor and praise with any other being.
That premise at least should nudge you to ask, how can there be more than one being that is given all those honorary names, titles and worship and not hold Jah to his monotheistic OT words?......Unless.....just maybe......the Father and the Son and the Spirit are so much one that Jehovah is not wrong to say boldly, "The Lord your God is one." "I am the Lord your God, and besides me there is no other God/Savior/Rock/Redeemer." To what creature did Jah ever encourage us to repose our ultimate trust and faith, to the point of heeding Jesus' plea "Come to me, those who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?"
If, in the end, I am wrong to give Jesus such high elevation and esteem, then I will submit to you that there is greater danger in not giving Him enough than in giving Him too much. "IF YOU DO NOT HONOR ME, THEN I WILL NOT HONOR YOU TO MY FATHER IN HEAVEN" I'm sure if Jah shares his names and honor and glory with the other two, yet says in the OT he would not give such to any other creature, surely Jesus IS Jehovah, and not some infinitely lowly creature (as compared to the Almighty)
Somehow, "In the name of the infinite Father, and of the created angel/man/angel mortal, and the powerful electric (?) force that you should be careful not to hurt its feelings, Amen and Amen" just does not seem to cut it.
I dare say, if you allowed yourself to be indwelled by the Spirit that cares about you and loves you, He would see to it that you know the truth about these issue and all the rest. Crafty lies are at work here, admittedly in either you or I. But I know that my rejection of your, and my attachment to these orthodox views, is done so only after really studying and understanding WHY you believe as you do-- the support and rationale for those interpretations. Only then could I say, both by process of elimination and by attraction of the Holy Spirit (not Satan, I believe), that "here I stand. I can do no other", as Martin Luther did.
There is an old book, written by an man named Henry Bickersteath, simply called The Trinity, in which he sets forth the logic for this oft misunderstood doctrine. He wrote it because there was an uprising of "cult" activity under the name of Unitarians in Britain, and he had a broken heart for these people.
If you would like to if nothing else know how to better defend and/or share your personal beliefs, you will not regret reading this book. The outline is simple.
That in the O and NT alike, the Bible:
forbids us to trust in any created being
delineates the infinite gap betwixt the created and the Creator
describes the awful jealousy that consumes the Almighty regarding his names, his praise and worship, and glory
commands that Jesus be trusted with our very lives and souls
declares Jesus higher than the angels, that he be called the sacred names of God, do the things that only God could do,
and that he be honored as only God should be.
I do this from memory, but let the book speak for itself. I have read scores of "your'" and others' books, and they only strengthen my beliefs, not because I twist their meaning, but rather because I accurately understand the foundations for those tightly-held beliefs. An implosion of an old building requires study of its foundations and well-place charges. You know where I'm headed with that. Lastly, it is a sign of respect to learn your enemy. Jesus was good at listening, and it disarmed those who would otherwise be defensive. Patton studied Rommel's books on tank tactics and was he ever glad he did.
Jesus knew Satan very well and, arguably, could therefore be wise to some of the wiley schemes that were thrown His way. If you are right, you are going to need to know a lot more of my position to reason me out of it. And if I am wrong I need YOU to bone up on these things!!! Likewise, I have you at the heart of this present endeavor. I pray that you will come to regard the name of Jesus as the name above all names, without parenthetical interjection (i.e.. no "all other" insertions).
I love you because I should, because He loved me first, and because He loves you...So under some of that intensity of yours is a (relatively) good and earnest person that is worth every effort this humble vessel can put forth. So it is with agape love that hopefully permeates this treatise that I sign
Respectfully Yours-
David Solberg
[email protected].
