SilentLambs Television Program Transcripts

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Below are the TRANSCRIPTS OF ALL OF THE SILENTLAMBS TELEVISION NEWS PROGRAMS (DATELINE, PANORAMA, CONNIE CHUNG, GERMAN TV, DAVID LETTERMAN, AND AUSTRALIA'S SILENT WITNESSES)!

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NBC DATELINE
WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION
DATE: May 28th, 2002
ANNOUNCER Speaking: From our Studios in New York, here is Jane Pauley.
JANE PAULEY Speaking: Good evening. At some point it may stop being news--each time another person comes forward to say they were sexually abused as a child by a trusted religious figure--but not yet, though tonight it's not Priests under fire.
In fact, our story began long before the Catholic Church scandal broke last January. The scenario of alleged abuse is much the same, but the consequences of coming forward, for people whose Faith was the center of their lives, would be harsh and profound. Here's John Larson.
JOHN LARSON (Dateline Reporter) Reporting:
In a small town like Othello, Washington, neighbors are often friends, and friends like family. Which makes the story you're about to hear even more painful. Because, for Erica Garza (Rodriguez), who grew up here, there was no one closer, no one she trusted more than her parents' best friend.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: You would have never known by looking at him, or by the way he acted what he was doing on the side.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What that friend, Manuel Beliz, was doing was molesting Erica, sexually abusing her.She says it started when she was just five years old.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: I remember it just like it was yesterday.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What was your reaction when he first started touching you?
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: I didn't know any better. I just remember it hurt.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Out of anything, I just remember the hurt.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: A hurt that grew, she says, because her molester pressured her to keep it all a secret. And while that may not be surprising, this isn't a story about a molester trying to stay in the shadows. This is a story about others who may have played a role not only in Erica's abuse, but the abuse of
other victims as well.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: They didn't care about what had happened. Everything they did was trying to hide the facts.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Both Erica and her molester were members of the same Church, Jehovah's Witnesses.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Jehovah's Witnesses are evangelical Christians best-known for going door-to-door handing out Awake! Magazine. Jehovah's Witnesses have 6 million members worldwide, and some controversial rules--no birthdays or Christmas, no blood transfusions, no military service, no saluting the
flag--all of which separates them, sometimes even isolates them from mainstream America. In fact, in the world of Jehovah's Witnesses, anyone outside the Church--most of you watching tonight--are considered part of Satan's world, a world which, as depicted in the Church's Literature, will be destroyed by God.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: True Jehovah's Witnesses, those who closely follow the Church's Rules, will survive to live forever on a perfect earth.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: But now there are accusations that the Church, run out of its Headquarters in New York, called the Watchtower Society, is covering up cases of child molestation, protecting molesters and keeping secrets that put children at risk.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Consider what happened to Erica Garza. By the time she was 16, Erica's family had moved away from Othello to a new home and new Kingdom Hall in California where one day she found the courage to tell her family her terrible secret.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: And what did her father, Reuben Garza do?
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Report it to the Police?
Mr. REUBEN GARZA (ERICA'S FATHER) Speaking: No. Never mentioned report it to the Police. Take care of it in the Congregation.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Reuben Garza, who was one of the Church's Lay Ministers, or "Elders", says that's precisely what Jehovah's Witness Leaders had taught him. And so instead of going to the Police, he and his wife, Alexandra, called the Elders back in Othello.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: But let me say the obvious. I mean, your daughter's been raped. Didn't you think, `I've got to go to the Cops?'
Ms. ALEXANDRA GARZA (ERICA'S MOTHER) Speaking: That was my first reaction. But as a Witness, first you've got to go to the Elders when you have a problem.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: But the Elders didn't go to the Police, either. Why? Well, Legally, they didn't have to. Only 16 States require Clergy Members to Report any and all suspected child abuse, and Washington State is not one of them. Instead, Church Elders opened their own Internal Investigation. It's one of the things that sets Jehovah's Witnesses apart from most other Religious Groups. The Church has its own Judicial System.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Whenever a Church Member is accused of doing something wrong--whether it's breaking a Church Rule like smoking, committing a sin like adultery, or even committing a Crime like rape--the local Church appoints a Special Committee of Elders to Investigate the charge. Now, if the accused is found guilty, they can be reprimanded or, in worst cases, kicked out of the Church, Disfellowshipped, potentially cut off from their friends and family, losing their chance, they believe, at everlasting life. For a Jehovah's Witness, there can be no greater punishment.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Erica Garza expected her molester would, at the very least, be Disfellowshipped. But after five months of waiting for the Church in Othello to act, she got angry and did the unthinkable.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: So I called my Elders and I said, "Look, I'm taking it to the Police."
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What did they say?
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: "Don't. Or else."
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Or else what?
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: That's what I said. I said, "Or else what?" And he said, "Just don't." I said, "What? I'll be Disfellowshipped if I take it to the Police? Is that what's going to happen to me?" And he said, "Yes. You will be Disfellowshipped." And I was just, like, "What? You're going to Disfellowship me for being raped, yet the guy who raped me is still a Jehovah's Witness?" And they said, "Don't. Don't take it to the Police. You will be condemned by God."
JOHN LARSON Speaking: It was October 1996, and Erica says she finally decided whatever the penalty, she had to go to the Police. Following an Investigation, Manuel Beliz was charged with molestation and rape.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: And the Church? Erica says her California Kingdom Hall not only Shunned her, but Shunned her family as well.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What happened?
Mr. GARZA (ERICA's FATHER) Speaking: I was removed as an Elder.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: So they kicked you out.
Mr. GARZA (ERICA'S FATHER) Speaking: Yes, they did.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Erica felt abused, abandoned by her Church and alone. But what she couldn't have known was that it would be 4 more years before another Jehovah's Witness, this time, an Elder 2,000 Miles away, would take a special interest in Erica's case. The Elder had uncovered Evidence, he says, that there were many more victims like Erica within Witness Kingdom Halls. And now he, too, was about to break with the Church and go outside into what Witnesses believe is the realm of Satan--the outside world--to expose the
Church's Secrets.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: You talking to me right now, it's like you're talking to Satan.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: That's correct. I'm attacking God, is what they've said about it.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: In the view of the Church, sitting down with us right now (is attacking God).
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: Yes.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Bill Bowen is a Candle-Maker in Kentucky, and a lifelong Jehovah's Witness. It all began, he says, about two years ago when he was filing Confidential Church Records at the Local Kingdom Hall and stumbled on this Letter. It described an admission dating back to the 1980s, a molestation case that he says the Church had swept under the rug.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: About how old was this child that was involved in this case?
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: As I reviewed the material, it appeared to me she was about 11 years of age.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: And the admitted molester? A man Bowen knew well, a fellow Elder who got only a slap on the wrist from the Church as was never reported to Police.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Outraged, Bowen put a Message on the Internet to see if there were other similar cases. The response, he says, was an avalanche of pain and frustration.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: These were all Jehovah's Witnesses that had been molested and silenced within the Church.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Bill Bowen is not saying Jehovah's Witnesses have more molesters than any other Religious Group. The problem, he says, is how the Church handles the cases that come to its attention.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Like the case of Daniel Fitzwater, a Jehovah's Witness Elder in Nevada. Bowen discovered that according to the Church's own Internal Records, Church Officials knew of 17 girls who had accused Fitzwater of molesting them. But Police say the Church NEVER passed that information on to them.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Bowen also learned that in New Hampshire Paul Berry beat and sexually tortured his step-daughter, Holly Brewer, from the time she was 4. But Holly's mother says that when she complained to Church Elders that Berry was beating Holly and her other kids, the Elders told her to be a better wife and to pray more. She also says they NEVER informed Police as required by State Law. The Church denies that, saying she never told them of the abuse. Holly later ran away from home and says she disfigured herself with tattoos and piercings in response to the abuse.
Ms. HOLLY BREWER Speaking: It started out by me internalizing the pain. It really did. It started by me, "I want to mess myself up. I want to make myself look as ugly as I can. I don't want any guys to hit on me. I don't want to be attractive to people."
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Both Paul Berry in New Hampshire and Daniel Fitzwater in Nevada ultimately were convicted of sexual crimes and are now in prison. But Bill Bowen says many others in the Church accused of sexual abuse have NEVER been reported to Police. It's a claim he says he's heard, though not verified,
from several hundred current and former Church Members.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: His conclusion: disturbing to day the least.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: It's a pedophile paradise within the Organization. I believe that.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What's the danger that you've been consumed by this to the point that -- that you've blown it all out of proportion? I mean pedophile paradise? Come on.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: I believe it with all my heart.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: There is a massive problem in the Organization.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: But Bill Bowen is just one man in one Congregation in Kentucky.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: This woman, Barbara Anderson, worked for a decade inside Jehovah's Witness (Bethel) Headquarters. When Anderson saw Bowen's Messages on the Internet, she says she realized she had to tell him there was much more to the story, involving children in MANY of the 11,000 Congregations across the Country.
Mrs. BARBARA ANDERSON Speaking: I don't believe that they're safe within their Church.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Anderson was a Researcher at the Watchtower Society in the early 1990s when a Senior Official there asked her to look into the Church's handling of sexual abuse cases.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What she found, she says, sickened her: hundreds of molestation cases on Record, all kept SECRET in Church Files -- SECRET not only from the outside world, but from the Members themselves, the families, the mothers and fathers and children who trust the Church is looking out for them.
Mrs. BARBARA ANDERSON Speaking: I believe that if they asked to see the Congregation Records, they will find that there are many Envelopes with Letters that discuss men -- or women -- in the Congregation that were accused of molesting a child.
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The Following three Paragraphs were edited out of the Original Dateline Broadcast to fit into the Time Slot, but they were added back in when the Dateline Show Re-Aired in the weeks after the Original May 28th 2002 Broadcast:
JOHN LARSON Speaking: In fact, Anderson gave Dateline a Copy of this Letter written in 1992 by a Psycotherapist, a Jehovah's Witness himself, who said he'd treated many Witnesses who'd told him they had been molested, and he had personally dealt with a number of Elders who were more interested in suppressing a matter of abuse.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Did the research that you did, talking to these Therapists and Psychiatrists, and the victims themselves, did it change the way you thought about the Church and what was going on behind closed doors?
Mrs. BARBARA ANDERSON Speaking: Yes, because the Watchtower Society didn't want to acknowledge that these girls were telling the truth because they were accusing Elders of molesting them.
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JOHN LARSON Speaking: Why would the Church want to keep these cases secret and in-house? Anderson agrees that part of the problem is the Church's distrust of the outside world, but she says it's not that simple. Anderson says when Church Elders Investigate crimes like child molestation, they follow instructions that may prevent them from taking action -- ancient instructions taken from the Bible itself.
Mrs. BARBARA ANDERSON Speaking: They basically use a Scripture in 1st Timothy 5:19 that states you're not to make an accusation against an older man unless there are two or three witnesses.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What are the odds that there are going to be two or three witnesses to an older man molesting a 8-year-old girl?
Mrs. BARBARA ANDERSON Speaking: No molester is going to have any witnesses, that's for sure.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: The sum and total of their Investigation will be going to a pedophile and saying, "Did you do it? Nope? Well, OK. Guess we'd better go on then. Sorry we bothered you."
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Bill Bowen says if you want to get an idea of how the Church sweeps cases under the rug, just listen to part of a conversation Bowen Recorded a little over a year ago with an Official in the Jehovah's Witness (Bethel) Legal Department.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Bowen calls seeking advice on how to handle a suspected molestation case involving a young girl and her father. Instead of being told to report it to the Police, Bowen is told to confront the suspected abuser.
Bethel Headquarters #1 Speaking On the Phone: Good afternoon, Watchtower.
Bethel Headquarters Receptionist Speaking On the Phone: Good afternoon, Legal Department.
Bethel Headquarters #2 Speaking On the Phone: You just ask him again, "Now is there anything to this?" If he says "No," then I would walk away from it.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking On the Phone: Yep.
Bethel Headquarters #2 Speaking On the Phone: Leave it for Jehovah. He'll bring it out.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking On the Phone: Yep.
Bethel Headquarters #2 Speaking On the Phone: But don't get yourself in a jam.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Again, there was no insistence that this matter be brought to the Authorities in the outside world. Bowen says he was so upset by the whole case he resigned as a Church Elder and vowed to help abuse victims. He didn't know that halfway across the Country, Erica Garza as feeling the same frustration as she prepared to face her molester in Court.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Did any of those Elders, any of the people in the Church stand up and speak on your behalf?
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: No.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: But Erica Garza was about to find out that she wasn't really all alone.
Announcer Speaking: DATELINE NBC, winner of 10 Headliner Awards for Excellence in Journalism. America's most watched, most honored News Magazine, DATELINE, will be right back.
ANNOUNCER Speaking: From our Studios in Rockefeller Center, here is Stone Phillips.
STONE PHILLIPS Speaking: She was just 5 years old when she says she was first molested by a respected Member of her Jehovah's Witnesses Congregation. Now a young woman, Erica Garza wants justice. She says Church Leaders threatened to Expel her if she went to the Police, but she went anyway and now her alleged attacker is on Trial for molestation and rape. Here with the conclusion to our story, John Larson.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Erica Garza's accused molester, Manuel Beliz, showed up in Court with plenty of support.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: His side was full of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: People I thought were my friends, but they were there to support him. And on my side was my family.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Even though Beliz had apparently CONFESSED his crimes before Church Elders, it appeared to make little difference. He was Expelled from the Church, but only temporarily. Elders allowed him to rejoin the Church before the Trial.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: John White, the Congregation's Top Elder (Presiding Overseer), explained at a Court Hearing.
Mr. JOHN WHITE Speaking From the Recorded Court Trial Audio Tape: We're satisfied that he was repentant and could be admitted to the Congregation again. To us, we don't see a problem.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: White also told the Court that when a Church Member is called before the Elders and admits to a crime, they consider it a Religious Confession and that, just like a Priest or Rabbi, he and other Elders have good reason not to testify about it in Court.
Mr. JOHN WHITE Speaking From the Recorded Court Trial Audio Tape: Jehovah's Witnesses do not want to harbor criminals or dangerous people. But we want the Confidentiality because if that's taken away from us, why should a person ever confess anything?
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Did anybody say, "We understand the pain that this girl has gone through?"
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: They say we -- they feel sorry for me.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Even without the Church's help or the testimony of Elders who, Erica says, knew what had happened, in August of 1998 Manuel Beliz was convicted, Guilty on two counts of rape and two counts of child molestation. He was sentenced to 11 1/2 years in prison, but two years into his term, his conviction was overturned on a technicality over how the Jury had been selected. Erica had stood up, faced her abuser, even challenged her Church, but now he was being let out of prison.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: I was so disappointed, I was sad, I was heartbroken and I didn't know what to do.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Manuel Beliz was released from prison to await a new Trial.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Last summer DATELINE found him back at the Kingdom Hall, about to join others going door-to-door, evangelizing for the Church.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: It just makes me so sad because I was raped and I was -- I'm being Shunned, and he raped me and -- and he's being loved. It just -- it -- it gives me chills up my spine just to think about it.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: How do Jehovah's Witness Leaders respond to complaints that they're trying to bury cases like Erica's? They declined a request for an On-Camera Interview, but spoke to us Off-Camera, and provided us with a Video-Taped Policy Statement by Spokesman J.R. Brown.
Mr. J.R. BROWN (Watchtower Society's Main Spokesman) Speaking From the Video Tape: Jehovah's Witnesses feel child abuse is an evil. It's an evil of our time, it's an evil in our society and so we abhor it.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Church Officials say they publish Articles like this, educating Members and training Elders how to help abuse victims.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: The Church also says Elders are required to Investigate any allegations of abuse, and steps are taken to protect alleged victims from further abuse.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: And while Officials acknowledge that molesters who repent are readmitted to Church, they say known molesters are not allowed to hold a position of responsibility within the Church.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: They also insist that the Church complies with all Laws on reporting abuse in those States where it's required, even when there's only one witness to the crimes.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: But in States where Churches are not required to report, they say they do not discourage victims from reporting abuse to Authorities.
Mr. J.R. BROWN (Watchtower Society's Main Spokesman) Speaking From the Video Tape: When it comes to the matter of reporting, then that's something the parents can decide. We certainly never tell them not to report a case of child molestation.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: In a Letter to DATELINE, the Church's General Council adds that "it is possible that a few of the 77,799 Elders of Jehovah's Witnesses have not followed the direction that they have been given regarding investigating and reporting child abuse."
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What remains unanswered, though, is why the Church gets involved at all with investigating what are criminal matters. And just how often do they turn one of their own into Authorities? We asked the Church for some examples, proof that they're as tough as they say they are on Members who abuse children.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: The Church waited 6 MONTHS, but finally offered us 2 cases. And right away we noticed something. In both cases, the victims were Jehovah's Witnesses, but their alleged molesters were not.
They were non-believers from outside the Church.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: In fact, we could only find 2 cases where the Church took an active role in turning in one of its own, including the case of this man, Clement Pandelo.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Pandelo, seen here in Family Videos confessed to Church Elders he'd molested his own granddaughter.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: How did the Church handle it? The parents of the young victim, Clement Pandelo's own son and daughter-in-law, Carl and Barbara Pandelo, also Jehovah's Witnesses, told DATELINE the Church pressured to agree to a deal in which Clement Pandelo pled Guilty to criminal sexual contact and endangering the welfare of a child. He was given only probation, NO jail time. And what did the Church Elders tell Barbara and Carl Pandelo?
Mr. CARL PANDELO Speaking: We should just let it go, that it's not Jehovah's time to deal with it.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: The Church says that's not true, and the Church apparently did Disfellowship Clement Pandelo 2 separate times. But each time they welcomed him back. So where is this CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER today, a man who, according to Court Records, has admitted molesting girls ALL HIS LIFE?
JOHN LARSON Speaking: DATELINE found him going door-to-door, a Jehovah's Witness in Good Standing, evangelizing to people who know nothing about his record. His own son, Carl, says the Church should know better.
Mr. CARL PANDELO Speaking: He's a SEXUAL PREDATOR. When he goes door-to-door, he has a craving for young, juvenile girls, as he puts it. He's looking at that child, having those immoral thoughts in his mind while he's there.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: You know the Church now says they don't have a special problem. It's a societal problem and they do everything they can to stop pedophiles from hurting children within the Jehovah's Witness Church.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: What do you say to them?
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Liars.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Even though her accused rapist had been freed on a technicality, Erica Garza was not about to let him off the hook.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Last summer, nearly 5 years after she first came forward, Erica headed back to Court.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Once again, not one Jehovah's Witness from her former Church came to support her. But this time, she wasn't alone.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: That out-spoken Elder from Kentucky, Bill Bowen, was there.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: Just to even things.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: And Bowen had set up a new Support Group for sexually abused Jehovah's Witnesses. And more than 20 people who had heard about the case through his Web Site were there to support Erica.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Thank you, everybody, for being here.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: These are people who don't know me, who flew from all over the place for me, to be there for me because they realize, "Hey, you didn't do anything wrong." And it was so encouraging to see people there for me as opposed for him.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: In Court, Manuel Beliz took the stand. He denied molesting Erica, but did admit touching her inappropriately. Once again, Beliz was found Guilty.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, Guilty.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Erica Garza says she has found justice in spite of her Church.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Oh, I can't believe it. On all 4 counts.
Mr. GARZA (ERICA'S FATHER) Speaking: Just a little bit of justice. You deserve it.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Thank you, God. Thank you, Lord.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: Her molester has been sent to prison for 11 1/2 years.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Thank you for all your help, Bill.
Mr. BILL BOWEN Speaking: Everything's over.
Mrs. BARBARA ANDERSON Speaking: You'll sleep well tonight, won't you?
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: Yeah.
JOHN LARSON Speaking: All Erica wants now, she says, is for the Church to change its Policy and give molestation victims simple advice.
Ms. ERICA GARZA Speaking: "Take it to the Police." Hey, encourage me to take it to the Police. Don't tell me not to.
STONE PHILLIPS Speaking: Erica Garza and Holly Brewer are both Suing the Watchtower Society and their local Congregations. The Church is fighting the Lawsuits.
STONE PHILLIPS Speaking: The Church also told DATELINE that while some known pedophiles still go door-to-door, they are not allowed to do so alone.
STONE PHILLIPS Speaking: Finally, 4 of the people DATELINE interviewed -- former Elder Bill Bowen, Barbara Anderson and Carl and Barbara Pandello -- are facing possible Expulsion (Disfellowshipping) from their Congregations.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 22 September 2002 6:6:48
UnDisfellowshipped

BBC PANORAMA
Program Title: "Suffer the Little Children"
Program Producer: PANORAMA BBC1 U.K.
Date that this Program was Aired on Television: July 14th 2002, 10:15 P.M. BST
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Two years ago elders from this church heard a shocking story. This young woman told them her father was sexually abusing her. The elders called her a liar.
ALISON COUSINS (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): What are you meant, meant to do then if he's doing something wrong? And they said "Come to us and we'll deal with it." And I said to them "Well, I've already spoken to you and you've told me I'm a liar".
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): The elders sent her home to her father. They didn't tell her that three years earlier he'd confessed to them that he was abusing her sister.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Tulsa, Oklahoma and a gathering of the church that let this happen. Over 6,000 Jehovah's Witnesses are in town for their District Convention. Panorama is here too. We're looking for answers from the leaders of an organization that's under fire, facing mountain allegations that it's shielding abusers, silencing victims and putting children at risk.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): It's a world-wide problem that is of epidemic proportions within the organization and no one knows about it, unless your child is molested.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Stevenson is on the Ayrshire coast in Scotland. It's a quiet holiday resort, a close-knit town and home to a thriving community of Jehovah's Witnesses. Door to door service, Bible studies and conventions are at the heart of family life for this young woman. But now she's left the church which she says betrayed her. She doesn't want to be recognised. She had a strict religious upbringing, her parents wedded to the Biblical principle that the father is head of the household.
GIRL (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): We'd pray together, kind of thing, I mean we prayed before meals and we'd pray before going to bed, and ask God for help and ask God for forgiveness for anything we've done wrong that day. It was very strict. I was scared of my dad for years. I was really frightened of him.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): She and her sister spent hours playing alone. Their father taught them that outside influences were bad. He prohibited friendships outside the church. But, from the age of 11, her make-believe games hid a painful truth - her father had started to abuse her.
GIRL (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I was in my bed one night and that's when my dad came through and started touching me and feeling me. I just lay there hoping that he'd go away.
GIRL (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY) [in Official Witness Statement at Selkirk's Police Office]: Over the years since I was 11 until I was 15 my dad had done things to me that he shouldn't have done like rub my breasts, finger me and try to have sex with me. I remember when we were in Perth we were staying in a tent. He started to touch me and he made me touch him, and he made me put his penis in my mouth and things like that.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Were you scared?
GIRL (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): Terrified! There was one thing my dad told me, if I'd ever told anyone about this he would break me apart.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): For years she kept quiet, but one Sunday, after a meeting at the Kingdom Hall, she asked to see church elders. She needed their help.
GIRL (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): And I just told them everything that happened.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Did they tell you that this was serious, that you should go to the police, that they would go to the police for you?
GIRL (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): No, they didn't tell me anything like that. They didn't make any mention of the police.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): They said they'd deal with it.
GIRL (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): Yes. After that they called my father in, and they had a very, very long chat with him. Then eventually they came out and we went home and that was the end of it.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): When confronted, Ian Cousins confessed he was abusing his daughter. He said he was sorry, so the elders sent him home with her. The abuse continued. Cousins was reproved or admonished publicly by the elders, but church policy meant that no one was told why, not even his younger daughter.
ALISON COUSINS (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): It was announced on the platform that Ian Cousins had been reproved, and after that I went to one of the elders and asked, well, "why has he been reproved?". And he said "It's because of something he did wrong" but he wouldn't tell me what it was.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Even when her sister moved out, sick of the abuse, Alison still didn't know why. She missed her sister and was lonely. With one daughter gone, Ian Cousins turned on the other. It all began with an innocent goodnight kiss.
ALISON COUSINS (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I gave him a kiss, like a peck on the lips and then I tried to get up to walk away and he pulled me down and he forced his tongue through my teeth, my clenched teeth, and he tried to put the blame on me and said "Did you really think you should be doing that?"
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): He blamed you?
ALISON COUSINS (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): Yes.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): It wasn't long before the abuse got worse. One day her father was accused of assaulting one of Alison's friends. She had to do something but had no where to turn - nowhere, except the Kingdom Hall. She asked to see a church elder.
ALISON COUSINS (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I told him everything that had happened and what my dad had done to me and he said that he didn't believe me at all and he said that I was a liar, and that my dad would never do such a thing and my dad was such a nice man.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Like her sister, she was sent home. Her father - "the nice man" - was free to continue abusing her. So she gave the elders an ultimatum: either they did something or she'd go to the police. They did nothing.
ALISON COUSINS (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY) [in Official Police Statement]: I have told the police about my dad because I am concerned that he has contact with other young girls through the church.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT WALLACE BURGESS (STRATHCLYDE POLICE): Some of these people gave good statements and very, very positive in their attitude in support of Alison and her sister. Other people felt that they didn't want to be involved and gave a negative statement and some people refused to speak to us altogether.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Why?
DETECTIVE SERGEANT WALLACE BURGESS (STRATHCLYDE POLICE): I've no idea why. They just refuse to speak to the police.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Were they Jehovah's Witnesses?
DETECTIVE SERGEANT WALLACE BURGESS (STRATHCLYDE POLICE): I believe they were.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): But they wouldn't help.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT WALLACE BURGESS (STRATHCLYDE POLICE): They wouldn't give a statement to us, no.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Only during the police investigation did the whole story become clear to Alison Cousins. Only now did she discover her sister had been abused too. Only now did she find out that her father confessed to elders 3 years earlier, yet no one had warned her, his next victim.
ALISON COUSINS (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): Nobody told me anything. They all basically kept it all under wraps and told nobody what had happened.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): What they did was keep a record of her father's name and confession on a church database - a register of suspected and convicted pedophiles to be monitored. We asked Alison Cousins to obtain a copy of her records using the Data Protection Act. There, in black and white, was proof that the Jehovah's Witnesses had known for 3 years that her father was a self-confessed pedophile. Yet, far from monitoring him, the elders twice turned a blind eye to his abuse of his daughters. When he confessed to church elders, Cousins got a mild rebuke. When he confessed in court, he got 5 years in jail.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT WALLACE BURGESS (STRATHCLYDE POLICE): I believe we were the last to know. They had told several people before coming to the police, and these people had not reported it either to the police or the social services. We have a duty to protect, and if we're not told we are unable to protect.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): New York, the capital of big business, and a fitting home for one of the largest and richest religious organizations in the world. From here the Jehovah's Witnesses control over six million members. From here, the world-wide headquarters in Brooklyn Heights, every policy, every guideline, is dictated. Visitors are welcome and one message is clear. In this organization you adhere to God's word. Every month 50,000 Bibles come off the press ready to be sold world-wide. But this too is where they keep records of suspected and convicted pedophiles in their ranks. Bill Bowen, a lifelong member, has resigned as an elder. He says the men at the top are protecting the church, not the children.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): They do not want people to know that they have this problem, and by covering it up they just hurt one person. By letting it out, then they hurt the image of the church.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Elders must report abuse to the church's legal desk. Only if the law demands it must they contact the police. If it doesn't, they be told they have a moral duty to call them, but often it seems to stop here. It seems to go no further than the church's own secret database.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): Every detail is written down about what happened, where it happened, when it happened, how it happened.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): So you're saying the organization has its own sexual offenders register if you like.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): That's exactly right.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): That it's keeping to itself and not showing others.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): Exactly right. These men remain anonymous to anyone outside the organization and anyone really inside the organization unless you're personally reporting the matter.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): So was this the policy back in Stevenson that let Ian Cousins continue to abuse his daughters? The elders have stepped down and refused to talk to us, so we asked the man sent here to sort things out. Hello, Mr Briggs. We're from BBC Panorama as you know.
JONATHAN BRIGGS (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PRESIDING OVERSEER): I know that.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): We just want to ask you a few questions about the Ian Cousins Case.
JONATHAN BRIGGS (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PRESIDING OVERSEER): It's reasonable to really actually consider the brothers and sisters in the congregation that have had to undergo all this pressure. So I would just leave it at that. That's all I have to say on the matter.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): The database, Mr Briggs, why should the Jehovah's Witnesses keep a database of men who have confessed to being pedophiles but the police aren't told? Do you think that's reasonable behaviour Mr Briggs?
JONATHAN BRIGGS (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PRESIDING OVERSEER): [Declines to respond, turns and retreats into the Kingdom Hall]
[JULY 11 2002]
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): The latest name added to the list should be that of James Barrett. Three days ago, clutching his Bible, this elder from Rugby was convicted of indecently assaulting two boys and sentenced to two years in prison. The church was told of the allegations five years ago, but Barrett denied them and was allowed to remain an elder. So, how many names are on the secret database? We asked the headquarters in New York. They refused to tell us. "Focusing on numbers isn't meaningful," they said. After a lifetime in the church, Bill Bowen tells a different story. How many names do you suspect are on that list?
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): Twenty-three thousand, seven hundred and twenty.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): How do you know that?
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): I was contacted by sources within the church. I was given a figure of over 20,000. Two different sources came back to me and said that number is actually more specific and gave me a figure of 23,720. They told me that they had accessed the internal database and that figure was based on child molesters in the USA, Canada and Europe, and that's the figure that they were given.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Over 20,000 names on a secret database. That's why these people say the church has to listen. With Bill Bowen, they're calling for the Jehovah's Witnesses to come clean about their record on child abuse. His campaign, "Silent Lambs", has already heard from 5,000 victims. This candle-lit vigil is for them.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): Or it's what they're doing, once it's found out, causing their own members to be deeply disturbed.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Heather Berry and her stepsister Holly Brewer have flown here from New Hampshire. The man who abused them has been gaoled for a minimum of 56 years. He was Heather's father. Now Heather and Holly are breaking new ground, they're taking the Jehovah's Witnesses to court.
HEATHER BERRY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I'm Heather from New Hampshire. I don't want to tell my story but I've heard the word "victim" too many times today, and all of us are standing out here today and we're standing tall and proud and saying this happened and that it can't happen and we're survivors, and we're fighting and we're not victims.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): They're the first of those survivors to take their fight to court. They're claiming that not only did the church do nothing when they were abused, it ostracized and punished the family when they called the police.
HEATHER BERRY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I'm very glad I came, and like I said, I would do it again, and again, and again, and as many times as it takes to get a change in the policies and things that they hide constantly.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I'm really glad that the policy was talked about so much today, that it's an actually policy, it's not just a few elders that want to hide things. It comes from higher-up.
HEATHER BERRY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): It's a world-wide policy.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): Yes.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): We asked the church for an interview to discuss the claims that they're putting thousands of children at risk. They offered us instead some video tapes. Here we have it, a box full of tapes in fact, Jehovah's Witnesses response, progressive understanding of pedophilia, education through publications, and one marked 'policies' and I'm told that's where we should get some answers. That night we watched the tapes, looking for those answers. In long letters, the organization had told us the welfare of children is of paramount concern to them, that they have a forceful child protection policy. We wanted to see it spelled out.
J.R. BROWN (WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY'S OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON): We've heard the suggestion that our policies may not be adequate to cover the problem of child molestation, but that's not the case all.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): The policy couldn't be simpler. The elders should deal with all allegations of abuse.
M.R. INFANTE (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS): I think that's a very good policy, that the elders essentially would take charge of the situation of reporting the abuse to the authorities.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): But the authorities they're told to contact aren't the police, it's their own legal desk.
J.R. BROWN (WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY'S OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON): The fact of the matter is, we have a very aggressive policy to handle child molestation in the congregation, and it is primarily designed to protect our children.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): So how aggressive is it in practice? Just over a year ago Bill Bowen rang the legal desk in New York asking how he should handle an allegation of abuse in his congregation. The advice he was given has little to do with protecting the victim. He was told to go back to the man accused.
REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LEGAL DESK AT WATCHTOWER HEADQUARTERS IN NEW YORK: You just him again, "Now, is there anything to this?" If he says "No" then I would walk away from it. Leave it for Jehovah. He'll bring it out.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): Yep.
REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LEGAL DESK AT WATCHTOWER HEADQUARTERS IN NEW YORK: But don't get yourself in a jam.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): "Leave it for Jehovah". That, according to thousands of victims, is the Jehovah's Witness child protection policy laid bare. No one knows more about that than Sara Poisson. Holly Brewer and Heather Berry's mother knows her loyalty to the church cost her daughters dearly. Paul Berry, her husband, beat them. She suspect worse, that Heather was being sexually abused and went to the elders.
SARA POISSON (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I could tell from their looks on their faces that I had done a bad thing, that I had spoken against my husband which is a bad thing. And so their solution was that I should be a better wife, and I should pray more. That was their solution, that's how I could stop him from battering us. I assumed they were right. It had to be right because they know everything because they're God's representatives on earth.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): She couldn't convince them, but she was convinced that Paul Berry was sexually abusing their daughter, Heather.
HEATHER BERRY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): When I was about 3 years old I started displaying behavior that no 3 year old in their right mind would display. I was throwing stools out of 2 storey windows and I was, well, I went to Boston Children's Medical Hospital in the psychiatric ward when I was 3, because she found me stabbing myself with a screwdriver in the arm in the kitchen. He came to me in the black of night, Hands outstretched, there was no fight. The masked man slowly became familiar with my shape, Gently rubbing his hands on me, every nook, cranny and gape. My child, you are so sweet, So perfect and right, then I knew nothing but defeat. I tried not to think about the abuse as much as possible. I mean there was the physical abuse, there was the verbal abuse and there was the sexual abuse. And when none of it was happening, that was ideal, and that's what I tried to focus on the most.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): And all the while, you were going to the Kingdom Hall every Sunday.
HEATHER BERRY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): We were.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): You were going to meetings during the week.
HEATHER BERRY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): We were going out on door-to-door service.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Time and again, the girls were told to wait outside while their mother begged local elders for help. Time and again, they saw her sent home to pray harder and be a better wife. Holly, too, had her own story to tell, the story she'd kept secret from her mother, the story she knew by now the elders wouldn't want to hear. Her instinct was to tell the local policeman, but, after years in the church, she just couldn't.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT JACK ZELLER (KEENE POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW HAMPSHIRE): Holly would actually tell me that she was very angry about things at home and she did on more than several occasions tell me that "Some day, Sergeant Zeller, I'm going to tell you something that happened to me" and I always told Holly, "When you're ready, I'll be there. You know where I am."
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Her mother saw the elders more than a dozen times, but remarkably it never strong Sarah Poisson to look for help outside the church. You can say that your children's lives are in danger, and in the same breath that you couldn't possibly go to the police. How can that be?
SARA POISSON (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): Because God would not want that. It would never have occurred to me, and even if it had, I would not have done it because he's a man. He's a baptized male and he's a ministerial servant and I was a woman and they're kids, and that's even worse than being a woman. "These things need to stay in this room" - I've heard that many, many times. "You need to pray about it more." I can show you my Bible, it's paper thin. I still have it. It's all worn out. I did a lot of praying.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Even after you had told them that her father was sexually abusing Heather, nothing changed?
SARA POISSON (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): No, no. Well yeah, things changed, they got a lot worse, for me.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): In the end, the decision was taken out of her hands. In school bruises were noticed on her children. Social workers were told. They gave her a stark choice, leave your husband or we take your children. But if she left him, she knew the church would cut her dead.
SARA POISSON (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): At that point, I had to make decision between God and my kids. And I knew.. well, at that time I knew, that if I chose my kids, I don't have prayer, but I didn't care anymore. So we lost everything in one day.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Sarah Poisson had no life outside the Kingdom Hall. When the congregation cast her out she had no choice but to move away. She didn't just lose every friend she had, overnight she was homeless, penniless, scraping a living to bring up her children. The friends they'd had, openly shunned them. But with the family now free of the church Holly could finally tell her mother the truth: her stepfather had abused her too. When he tried to gain access to her younger sister, Holly finally did what the elders hadn't - she walked into the local police station.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT JACK ZELLER (KEENE POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW HAMPSHIRE): It was clear to me that it was a life's crossing, a road to cross. Never any doubt in my mind that Holly could do it. It was a tremendous effort on her part, and it smacked of raw courage from beginning to end.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): The Holly Brewer who walked into his office that day was a very changed, a very defiant young woman.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): My earliest memory is like about 3 years old, my latest memory is 10 years old, and he gradually worked into being interested in me to full-blown sex, intercourse, over those years.
[2:47 p.m. MARCH 7 1997 Official Police Video]
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): It was a harrowing time. The police took Holly back to the house where the abuse had started.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): He had a room that he had found in a very, very old house that was underneath the barn that you'd crawl through a hole to get to, and once you were in there, you were isolated from the entire house, and from everything, and that's where everything would go down.
[3:22 p.m. MARCH 7th 1997 Official Police Video]
WOMAN POLICE OFFICER (NEW HAMPSHIRE POLICE): Would he kneel down on, next to you, or over you?
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): He'd like sit like this... and let me do..
WOMAN POLICE OFFICER (NEW HAMPSHIRE POLICE): All right
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): and then he'd lean over..
WOMAN POLICE OFFICER (NEW HAMPSHIRE POLICE): And did he tell you what he wanted you to do?
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I knew after a while.
WOMAN POLICE OFFICER (NEW HAMPSHIRE POLICE): OK.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): She told the police exactly what Berry had wanted, of the brutal sexual assault she'd suffered throughout her childhood.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I had no vision of me growing up and being 16. I thought he was eventually going to kill me, you know - and then I'd be free and that's the way I looked at it.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): It's really hard to come back here now.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I know. He'd say things like "Thank you for obeying me" and he'd thank me for obeying him and reminding me of that word, that "obey" word. That was a big thing.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Paul Berry was confident Holly would never go to the elders. Apart from anything else, the Jehovah's Witnesses have a clear rule on sin. They need two witnesses or a confession before they'll take action. As Holly told her story, it seemed to police that this rule in a strict religious community would have let the abuse continue.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): All the way up to here..
WOMAN POLICE OFFICER (NEW HAMPSHIRE POLICE): So, this is the same piece of material.. All right.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT JACK ZELLER (KEENE POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW HAMPSHIRE): Sexual abuse of children is not to be tolerated, and I don't care what their reasoning was, it was faulted reasoning. They were wrong, and as far as I'm concerned they were criminally negligent. That's my take on it.
WOMAN POLICE OFFICER (NEW HAMPSHIRE POLICE): Even with just the child's word, with one witness, with just the mother's word, without the two witnesses their Bible tells them they need?
DETECTIVE SERGEANT JACK ZELLER (KEENE POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW HAMPSHIRE): Well unfortunately most kids don't have several witnesses observing them get raped. That's an unfortunate part of it.
WOMAN POLICE OFFICER (NEW HAMPSHIRE POLICE): It took nearly 4 years for the case to come to court. Paul Berry faced 17 charges of aggravated sexual assault.
SARA POISSON (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): I was holding Holly's hand and she had a lot of pointy rings on, and she was squeezing my hand really tightly, and it took them a long time to get through the verdict because there were so many indictments, and when it was over my hand was all blood and I didn't even feel it. And it was so powerful to be believed.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): But not everyone did believe them, even after he was convicted by a jury on all 17 indictments. Two dozen members of the Kingdom Hall turned up at the sentencing hearing. They all appeared to give character statements for Paul Berry.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT JACK ZELLER (KEENE POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW HAMPSHIRE): He had already been found guilty and they found room in their hearts to stand in front of that child and say we don't believe any of it. And what they were saying was, they didn't believe the child, they didn't believe in the system of justice, they didn't believe the judge, they didn't believe the jury, they didn't believe anyone - except themselves.
HOLLY BREWER (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): Everything they were saying was "He's such a fine worker, I've worked with him secularly and he always shows up to work on time, he's such a good worker." Everybody said that and also the second half was everybody started saying "He's baby-sat our kids hundreds of times. I would let him baby-sit our kids every day, and he's such a good worker." And I was just sitting there like.. he's not on trial for being a negligent worker.
DETECTIVE SERGEANT JACK ZELLER (KEENE POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW HAMPSHIRE): I can't imagine how badly she must have felt not to have been believed by elders in her own close-knit community. What a horrible blow to a child this must have been. Shame, shame on them.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): But another serious accusation is levelled against Jehovah's Witnesses. In their efforts to cover-up abuse, they may even try to frustrate police investigations. In Birmingham, West Midlands police were told of a sexual assault by a Jehovah's Witness on a young boy. They asked local elders for help.
SERGEANT STEVE COLLEY (WEST MIDLANDS POLICE): They were very reluctant to give up any information towards me. It was an uphill battle so far as the church was concerned, with me, virtually at every turn. They actually said to me unless I provide two Jehovah's Witnesses who'd actually seen the offense, then as far as they were concerned the offense hadn't taken place.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): The boy was Simon Brady. He was just 9 when he was abused by a member of this Kingdom Hall. He felt he could tell no one.
SIMON BRADY We're taught if you go to elders, if you want to be believed or you have a complaint about someone, then there has to be more than one of you, there has to be two people. There has to be more than one witness, basically, you know. What can I say? They want more than one witness, you know.. every time I've gone to them, you know.. they wouldn't have believed me. Statement of Simon Andrew Brady, aged 18.
SIMON BRADY (in Official Police Statement): I recall that one of the brothers of the congregation, a man known to me as Jaswant Patty began to take an interest in me. I would have been 8 or 9 years old at the time.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Simon Brady's parents were going through a divorce. Jaswant Patty offered to help out, take him off his mother's hands.
SIMON BRADY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): He'd take me for drives after the meetings, he'd take me home from the congregation, you know.. give me a lift home. I can remember on one occasion he took me to his sister's flat while she was away on holiday. He said we'd go in and we'd check his sister's flat, and there he really sexually abused me basically.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): What did he do?
SIMON BRADY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): It was quite severe, to be honest with you, it was severe. So even now, to think of it, I don't.. you know.. it hurts now to talk about it, to be honest with you, and I've done that once already. I find it very hard to talk about it any more, basically. He dropped me off at home. I remember going to the bathroom and scrubbing with Dettol, because I felt dirty at what had happened.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): For years he said nothing, afraid the elders wouldn't believe him. When he finally did speak out, his instinct as a 9 year old proved right.
SIMON BRADY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): It's not so much did they believe me. Did they want to believe me? They didn't want to believe me. I think in terms of my house, you know.. they weren't open-minded and I think they'd already made their mind up even before they got to my house.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): The police did believe him, and they tracked down a second boy who'd been abused by Patty. But what happened next caused them serious concern. An elder confronted the victim's father, calling the man's son a liar. The father complained to the police, who warned the elder to stay away from the victim's families. His excuse was that, as an elder, he had every right to investigate the case for himself.
SERGEANT STEVE COLLEY (WEST MIDLANDS POLICE): It was his duty to test the evidence prior to the court case. I advised him that if that sort of behaviour continued, then if an allegation had been formally made, then I would have to investigate that particular person for offenses to pervert the course of justice, and in fact witness intimidation. The conversation did get a little bit heated towards the end, but obviously I'd a duty to protect my complainants and witnesses to the case. I made sure and sent out the signal that I was prepared to protect them and take drastic steps, i.e. arresting people, if they breached that.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): In Birmingham, as in New Hampshire, the elders supported the accused. Even after Patty was convicted and sentenced to five years in jail they didn't waver. At the next meeting in the Kingdom Hall, the elders made sure the congregation knew where they stood.
SIMON BRADY (VICTIM OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS PEDOPHILE-PROTECTION POLICY): There's Nice McGivern saying "As a body of elders - that's including every elder in Rubery - we feel as a body of elders that basically this man is innocent, we believe he's innocent, and the Bethel have informed us they will do everything in their power to help this man".
SERGEANT STEVE COLLEY (WEST MIDLANDS POLICE): I then made it my duty to actually speak to the Legal Services Team of the Bethel in London and voice my disquiet about the lack of co-operation I'd had from start to finish from this inquiry.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Under police pressure, the elders did apologize and were demoted though not sacked. The London headquarters, the Bethel, refused to discuss any specific case. They said this was because the elders had to respect the confidentiality of the victims. But the victims wanted answers. We again asked for an interview with their spokesman, Paul Gillies. When he refused we phoned him, told him we were recording and asked a simple question. Are elders told to report allegations of abuse to the police or not?
PAUL GILLIES (WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY'S OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON): The elders' guideline is: if you get any single allegation of child abuse come to your attention, phone this office.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Why phone this office? Why not phone your local police station?
PAUL GILLIES (WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY'S OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON): Well, you see the first thing is we have to make sure for the protection of the child, that's our first priority.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Is it the protection of the child... is it fair to ask you, isn't it the protection of the church that comes straight to mind there?
PAUL GILLIES (WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY'S OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON): It is the protection of the child. We have a child protection policy.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): It was a long conversation and we asked if he'd be prepared to answer the same questions on camera. He refused. So it was back to America and back to a Jehovah's Witness convention in Tulsa. We'd been told we'd find a member of the Governing Body here. Ted JARACZ is one of the men responsible for the church's child protection policy. For more than two months we've been asking them for an interview. We want answers to some simple questions. Why do they keep their database of suspected pedophiles secret? Why don't they report all allegations of abuse to the police? Why do they send children back to the arms of their abusers? They refused to talk to us. But here at last we had our chance. Mister JARACZ, tell me about the database. How do you justify keeping a list of people, men in some cases who have confessed to pedophilia, but you have not reported them to the authorities. What justification is there for you to keep that list?
TED JARACZ (MEMBER OF THE SUPREME GOVERNING BODY OF THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES): You know, you're from Britain. You have a privacy law. You have a directive from the European Union. You observe that, don't you?
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): So when allegations of abuse are made, is it alright to keep them private?
TED JARACZ (LEADING MEMBER OF THE GOVERNING BODY OF THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES): I think you were answered. That question was answered strictly to your satisfaction.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): Can you answer it now?
TED JARACZ (LEADING MEMBER OF THE GOVERNING BODY OF THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES): I'm not going to repeat. I'll just tell you exactly and you will see it in writing. It is all in print. You know the Bible says "Do not go beyond the things that are written."? We don't go beyond the things that are written.
BETSAN POWYS (BBC REPORTER): And that was that. No doubt, no second thoughts. Just a simple belief that Jehovah will sort it out, a belief for which others, younger and more vulnerable, may continue to pay a price.
BILL BOWEN (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ELDER 1984-2000): They're living in denial, denial of what's happening to their children, and it's not a matter.. you see, if they accept that, then they accept that there is a problem. So rather than admit that there's a problem, they will just let children go on and continue to be molested and not do anything about it.
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THANKS TO GRITS FOR THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION!
Panorama did the 7-14-02 Sunday night show, but also there was a 7 minute audio pre-advertising the show (I think earlier in the day on 7-14-02). That info is (or was) here:
Jehovah's Witnesses and child abuse
The Jehovahs witnesses are the latest in a succession of religious groups to come under attack for the way they have responded to allegations of child sex abuse within their ranks. A Panorama investigation to be shown on BBC1 tonight (Sunday) reveals that a number of legal actions against the organization are underway in America, but the problem is not confined to that country. Report by Panorama's Shabnam Grewal.
Listen here http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/realmedia/sunday/s20020714g.ram>; (7m 21s)
Panorama also did that follow-up show the next morning 7-15-02 (a Q & A session). I don't recall seeing an transcript of the Q & A Show, but here's a little info:
The Jehovah's Witnesses are accused of having a "child protection policy" that protects paedophiles.
You can ask our panel about the organisation, its policies and how child abuse should be dealt with in a live forum on Monday 15 July at 14:00 BST, to be shown on this page and on Digital Satellite television.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/live_forums/newsid_2124000/2124808.stm
When child abuse is suspected within a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, "elders" in the church have a "child protection policy" to follow.
This involves reporting the matter to the church's own legal desk - but not necessarily to the police.
The organisation's strict biblical interpretation means not only that the matter often remains a secret within the organisation, but also that victims can be sent back home to the abusive relationship which they have complained of.
A former elder, Bill Bowen, has spoken out to Panorama about these policies. He's now leading a campaign to change the church's attitude to child abuse within its ranks.
And we speak to victims caught up in this controversy from around the world.
E-mail us your questions for our panel to answer.
Also, that German TV program which did a 10 minute spot on or about 7-15-02:
German TV magazine KONTRASTE ( http://www.kontraste.de"; target="_new"> http://www.kontraste.de;) broadcasted a very well researched report on child abuse within the JW community. The report was only 10min long, but it was German prime time - the very first topic after the most watched daily news magazine. KONTRASTE (Contrasts) is very reputable TV magazine. Two victims were interviewed and a JW spokesman.
Protecting the Perpetrator Comes First - Child Abuse Among Jehovah's Witnesses
by Caroline Walter and Marcus Weller
[email protected]"> [email protected]?subject=Kontraste%2020.06.02,%20Jehova)
Once again a scandal within a religious community involving sexual molestation of children by "men of God".
Caroline Walter and Marcus Weller report about a crime against children and a sinister cartel of silence.
Ursel Wagner was 9 years old when she was sexually abused by a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Ursel Wagner:
"This brother used to visit us and made the offer to my parents: "I would like to put the little girl to bed, and her read a good night story that will be fun."
Cornelia Wagner, Mother:
"Imagine, as I am there ironing my clothes and doing the dishes, this young man is in my daughter's room, reading stories to her and abusing her in the next room."
Ursel Wagner:
"In some way, I knew that it was not right what he did to me. But I was confused, because that was something that did not exist among Jehovah's Witnesses.
At that time, Ursel's parents were Jehovah's Witnesses also. When her daughter told them about the molestation, they proceeded the way they were required: they reported the incident to the elders in their congregation. But the elders told them not to make trouble and keep it quiet.
Cornelia Wagner:
"I was shocked. I could not believe what the elders demanded for me to do: remain silent. They gave some flimsy reasons and said by this we would also protect our daughter."
The family got no support by their spiritual leaders, instead the opposite was true: the perpetrator was protected, fellow congregation members are not warned .
Ursel Wagner:
"It still makes my angry how these people dealt with it back then. I am sure we could have saved some other girls from being molested. But nothing happened, nothing at all."
Cornelia Wagner, Mother:
"They made us feel that the roles had switched, we had become the perpetrators. It was as if we were accusing them and that did not fit their perfect picture."
Jehovah's Witnesses view themselves as a chosen group that lives rigidly by Bible principles. Jehovah's Witnesses believe in a soon-to-come doomsday called Armageddon that is survived by their members only. Their ultimate earthly authority is the worldwide operating Watchtower Society. 210.000 Jehovah's Witnesses live in Germany. They spread their teachings via the magazines "Watchtower" and "Awake". The obedience to the organization is obligatory for all members.
Stephan Wolf was a Jehovah's Witness for 20 years. Today he supports others leaving. More and more victims of child abuse contact him.
Stephan E. Wolf, Ausstieg e.V. (Exit Inc.)
"The woman's attitude is to be in submission and follow the principle of headship, this also applies towards children that are required to be obedient - if necessary violently. I think this prevailing attitude promotes an environment in which child abuse is more likely than in other parts of society."
Ruth Schlegel was born into a Jehovah's Witnesses environment. Her family lived strictly to the rules of the organization. Her father was an elder.
Ruth Schlegel:
"My father started to molest me when I was 9 years old. It began with touching me. It developed into sexual intercourse. That last time was when I was 15 or 16 or so when I was raped."
Ruth's mother reported the molestation to the highest leaders in the congregation, the Elders. But yet again nothing was done and the perpetrator was not reported to the authorities. For years after, Ruths fathers abused other girls.
Ruth Schlegel:
"In the elders opinion they had done enough. They had a meeting. They had spoken to him and had demanded that he had to apologize to me. They had done everything the Watchtower Society says and so the case was closed. That was their opinion, from the religious point of view because everything from outside i.e. the law, reporting to the police did not matter because the Society says they are above law, they deal with it internally."
Protecting the perpetrator and silencing victims - normal procedure of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Dr. Andreas Fincke, Protestant Church expert on cults:
"They have a closed society. When wrongdoing occurs they appoint judicial committees to deal with conflicts and moral transgressions. The idea behind this attitude is that you don't go to court with Brothers and Sisters but to deal with those things internally first. That sounds good but in reality it often results with those in authority the elders, always men, judging matters they have no business getting involved with."
Do elders actually judge in cases of child abuse? We asked Jehovah's Witnesses:
Uwe W. Herrmann, Speaker of Jehovah's Witnesses:
"Because of our Biblical understanding we believe that there are some specific sins for which the local elders are responsible."
PAY ATTENTION TO YOURSELVES AND TO ALL THE FLOCK is the title of the elders' manual. And it is there the Elders are told how to proceed:
"Some disputes should not be dealt with at secular courts."
And: "...it is the Elders decision if the statements are trustworthy."
Dr. Andreas Fincke, Protestant Church expert on cults:
"For a Jehovah's Witnesses who has become the victim of child abuse, it is impossible to get justice within the organization. The simple reason is that you need two witnesses that confirm the incident and that is almost always impossible when it comes to child abuse because there are of course no witnesses."
The Watchtower Society has built a wall of silence around the perpetrators called confidentiality. By making a simple denial pedophiles can live their inclination and remain in their positions within the congregation.
Stephan E. Wolf, Ausstieg e.V. (Exit Inc.)
"The main principle is to create a perfect image to the outside world. In their own eyes they are models to the outside world concerning moral standards, one of the buzzwords they like to use in the media. Having pedophiles in their midst does not fit that image, let alone the fact that the public gets to know that they are being protected in the movement. So, they are trying everything they can, to prevent the facts form coming out to the public."
But this perfect image is also intended to help Jehovah's Witnesses to get the recognition as a church. For 11 years, they have been going to court through all channels to get the same religious status as the Catholic and the Protestant Church. Recognition would result in several cost saving privileges i.e. to raise a church tax to create revenue.
Thus, the accusations of child abuse does not fit the image presented, yet more and more cases are coming out to the open while the organization keeps on denying there is a problem.
Uwe W. Herrmann, Speaker of Jehovah's Witnesses:
"We, the Religious Community of Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany, don't know of any cases of child molestation here in Germany."
Stephan E. Wolf, Ausstieg e.V. (Exit Inc.)
"I think the time has come that the public sees there is something going on in the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, pedophiles within have a perfect environment where nothing is being done and they do not have to be afraid."
Uwe W. Herrmann, Speaker of Jehovah's Witnesses:
"Basically, we don't punish at all. Only God can punish. The Elders of a congregation can only check if someone is repentant or not. If he repentant then the sinner gets further help to get over that sin."
It seems that only the victims get punished. Ruth Schlegel has been expelled from the Witnesses because of smoking and adultery. She still fights with the aftermaths of the abuse
LATE NIGHT TV COVERAGE:
DAVID LETTERMAN
comments on the JW sex abuse scandal in his monologues on Monday and Tuesday nights, July 15 and 16, 2002. To hear the monlogues yourself, you can listen at Letterman's website here: http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/ and click on "Dave's Monologue" in the DAVE-TV box.
On Monday, Letterman said this: "Did you hear there's a big sex abuse scandal concerning Jehovah's Witnesses in Minnesota? (no response from audience so he asks again) Did you hear about that???? (audience now groans, Nooooooooooo) Yeah, well, uh, I sure hope this isn't true... I really hope it is not true because, uh, we would really hate to see people START avoiding Jehovah's Witnesses... We wouldn't want THAT to happen." (laughter from audience).http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=32252&site=3
Tuesday night: David lettermen just crushed the jws again in tonights monologue. He asked, "Are you tired of all the religious sex scandals? Now the Jehovah's Witnesses have a sex scandal. They grope you then they leave you a pamphlet. Then they went to court today but no one answered the door."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=32348&page=1&site=3#425664
Another version of the Tuesday night jokes: For the second night in a row, David Letterman included a jab at the Witnesses in reference to their sex abuse scandal. Tonight in his monologue, he said (something like):
"Those Jehovah's Witnesses, they're something else. First they grope you, then they leave you a pamphlet!" Then he mimicked a JW saying "Here" while handing you a piece of literature.[/b] http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=32347&site=3
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UnDisfellowshipped

CNN (Cable News Network)
Connie Chung Tonight
Connie Chung Interview with Bill Bowen, Heidi Meyer, and Amber Long
Date that this Program was Aired on Television: August 14th 2002
CONNIE CHUNG: Most of us, I suspect, know the Jehovah's Witnesses only as the men and women who go door-to-door handing out literature about their faith. Jehovah's Witnesses are evangelical Christians, with about 1 million members here in the U.S. The movement was founded in the 1870s in Pennsylvania. Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the bible as the literal word of God. They do not allow blood transfusions, do not serve in the military or celebrate Christmas or birthdays.
Now, some members say that something awful is happening behind closed doors, a pattern of alleged child abuse that the religious organization has not only failed to report but, they say, has even helped to keep from the authorities.
Tonight we'll introduce you to two young women who say they've been victimized by a Jehovah's Witness member.
Joining us from Minneapolis to tell their stories in the first person are Heidi Meyer and Amber Long. Also joining us is a man who's tried to bring together alleged victims of abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses. He's William Bowen, once an elder within the congregation who resigned his position two years ago in protest against the way the group deals with suspected abusers.
Welcome to all of you. Now, Heidi, you were 10 years old when you were first abused. What happened?
HEIDI MEYER, ALLEGEDLY ABUSED BY JEHOVAH'S WITNESS: The man who abused me...
CHUNG: Was a Jehovah's Witness?
MEYER: He was a Jehovah's Witness in my congregation. His name is Derrick Lindelah (ph). He was a friend of the family. He was friends with my brother and I was friends with his younger sisters, and whenever the opportunity arose or whenever he created an opportunity, he would pull me aside and molest me any chance he got.
CHUNG: How long did this go on, Heidi?
MEYER: Until -- into my 13th year. Just after I turned 13.
CHUNG: All right. And you reported this to the elders in the Jehovah's Witnesses. And what happened?
MEYER: When I was 15, I went to the elders with this, as we're instructed as Jehovah's Witnesses to do. And I spoke to them in the hopes of discontinuing this problem, and that they would step in and take care of this person.
CHUNG: Did they?
MEYER: No, they did not. They not only said that they thought I had misinterpreted his actions, but they also told me that I needed to be careful who I spoke to about this and what I said about this, because without two eyewitnesses to the situation, I could be faced with a judicial committee for gossip or slander.
CHUNG: Basically, do you think they were trying to tell you not to go to the police?
MEYER: Absolutely. They said to go to the police and bring this matter to court would be a reproach on God's name and God's organization.
CHUNG: So you kept quiet.
MEYER: Absolutely. Under threat of -- under threat of excommunication.
CHUNG: Yes, from the Jehovah's Witnesses. And your whole family, your whole family belonged, so it meant something to you to belong, as well.
MEYER: Absolutely. Not only my family, but as a Jehovah's Witness, you associate only with members in good standing. And that leaves you in a position where everybody you know, everybody you trust, everybody you've ever known or trusted, is somebody who's inside that organization.
The threat of being thrown out of that and shunned from them is one powerful enough that kept me quiet for a long, long time.
CHUNG: All right, we'll get back to you, Heidi, in a minute. Amber, you claim that you were molested by the same man when you were 12 years old. What happened to you?
AMBER LONG, ALLEGEDLY ABUSED BY JEHOVAH'S WITNESS: Correct. I was at his parent's home. I was friends with his younger sister. And I was molested there. After that visit I went home and told my parents immediately, and we also went to the elders, as is directed in that religion.
CHUNG: And what happened?
LONG: They, you know, insinuated that it was a misunderstanding, that maybe I was upset, told us to come back and talk about it later. When I still stuck to my story, they told us there was really nothing they could do, because there wasn't two eyewitnesses. And again there was that veiled threat of being excommunicated.
And all my life, growing up after that, they, you know, made insinuations to the fact that perhaps it was something that I had done that warranted the abuse.
CHUNG: All right. Amber, we'll get back to you in a minute.
Bill, you've gone so far as saying that you believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses is a pedophile paradise. You know, are you exaggerating? I know you've investigated, but I think one would believe that you might be exaggerating here.
WILLIAM BOWEN, DIRECTOR, SILENTLAMBS.ORG: I've spoken to over 5,000 victims of abuse either through e-mail or direct phone contact. I have an abuse hotline that rings into my home, and I get calls every day. All these people are abuse survivors that tell the same story as Amber and Heidi do. That is, that they went to the elders and they were suppressed, they were covered up.
It's a common thread. Yesterday I got a thread or an e-mail from a young girl, 15 years of age, she went to the elders, she said I am just like Heidi. And after seeing the recent media, I am angry that they would do this to me. And that's what most of these young ladies are. They're angry that they were abused and revictimized by the policies of this church.
CHUNG: Were you intimidated by the Jehovah's Witnesses?
MEYER: Absolutely. There is no option but to be intimidated. Your entire life revolves around your involvement in that organization. That is your entire life. And it's often referred to as such, in the organization. If you are ousted from that organization, it is a trauma in your life. There is an enormous upheaval. It is something that affects every single day of your life.
CHUNG: This is a statement from the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'd like all of you to listen to it.
"We abhor the sexual abuse of children and will not protect any perpetrator from the consequences of this gross and perverse sin. We expect the elders to investigate every allegation of child abuse. Unrepentant wrongdoers are expelled from the congregation. Special care is taken to ensure the victims are given ongoing assistance and counsel that help them deal with the pain of the abuse. They should never be told by elders not to report their allegations to the authorities.
Amber, I can see you shaking your head.
LONG: I just -- that's just horrifying that they would write something like that. It's so untrue.
MEYER: You know, and it's a good practice on paper. But it's just not -- it's just not applied. In my situation, in Amber's situation, in countless numbers of situations across the nation, and into other countries, it's just not applied.
CHUNG: But why would they put out a statement like this which you claim is not correct?
BOWEN: That statement is a bald-faced lie, in my opinion. These people know the abuse has been covered up. Ten years ago, research was done in the organization that they knew multiple little girls were being molested. They were inundated with mail -- of "Awake" magazine that was written on this subject.
They refused to acknowledge it then, and the fact that it's went on this long, if they make any acceptance that there's a problem, then they admit they willfully have hurt children and not done anything about it.
Bill, you may very well be disfellowshipped (ph), which is essentially excommunicated from this congregation. And your father even made a video condemning you for your investigation of this sexual abuse problem. Doesn't that hurt?
BOWEN: Yes, it hurts deeply. And I don't hold it against him, because I know that he was intimidated just like these two young women were intimidated by the church to make that video, and have it distributed to the local media in this area...
CHUNG: Well, is it worth it to you to be ostracized by your own family?
BOWEN: You have to do what is ethically and morally right. And because people are pressured by religion to do what's ethically and morally wrong, that doesn't excuse that. And so, I'm compelled to go forward, to let these -- for these victims who have been victimized and revictimized by this church.
Many young women have been disfellowshipped when they tried to tell other members in the church that they were molested, simply because that they wanted -- the molester said that they didn't have two eyewitnesses when he raped these young women.
CHUNG: Heidi and Amber, what has happened to the member who you claim molested you?
MEYER: Absolutely nothing, to this day.
LONG: Nothing.
CHUNG: Is he a member in good standing?
MEYER: He is a member in good standing.
LONG: Yes, he is.
CHUNG: You -- both of you may very well be disfellowshipped. Are you prepared for that? And doesn't that mean that your family wouldn't talk to you anymore?
MEYER: Yes, it does mean that. But, you know, my parents raised me to be an independent thinker, a strong person, and someone who is just. And the evidence is so black and white in this situation, there is no alternative choice. There is no other avenue I could be taking with this.
CHUNG: Heidi, Amber, we so appreciate your being with us. And Bill, thank you as well.
And before we go, we should note that we spoke to the attorney for Derrick Lindelah, the man accused of molesting Heidi and Amber, and his lawyer told us that Lindelah would deny all accusations but that no formal answer has been filed yet in a civil suit brought by the two girls.
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Silent Witnesses
Australian News Channel 9
September 22nd, 2002
GRAHAM DAVIS, REPORTER: At the Melbourne Tennis Centre, the gods of sport make way for the real thing, as 10,000 voices praise the almighty. These are just some of the 60,000 or so Australians who belong to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, better known as the Jehovah's Witnesses.
PREACHER: We need to be zealous as proclaimers of God's kingdom, shining as illuminators of the world.
REPORTER: They're the clean-cut evangelists who appear at our doors, preaching Armageddon and the paradise to come for true believers.
PREACHER: Call back on everyone who shows even the slightest interest, even if we've just left them with a tract.
REPORTER: Yet as we'll see, the shepherds, as church leaders portray themselves, have created a hell on earth for some of the most vulnerable of their flock and they're outlaws in the classic sense, having placed themselves outside the laws that protect children from sexual predators. When it finally dawned on you that what you were witnessing was a policy of covering up child abuse, how did you feel about them?
NATALIE WEBB, CHILD ABUSE VICTIM: Devastated. Disappointed. Angry.
REPORTER: Today, victims like Natalie Webb speak out for the first time, accusing the church of covering up the crimes against them. She was abused by her own father, Victor, an outwardly respectable member of the Bentleigh congregation in suburban Melbourne.
NATALIE WEBB: My earliest memory is having a bath with my father and he was touching me, and from other things around me, I realised that I would have been about four.
REPORTER: Four years old?
NATALIE WEBB: Four, yep.
REPORTER: And how long did the abuse go on for?
NATALIE WEBB: Till I was... just turned 17.
REPORTER: 17?
NATALIE WEBB: Mmm-hmm.
REPORTER: And presumably it progressed from...
NATALIE WEBB: Just touching to intercourse, penetration.
REPORTER: Natalie lived with her terrible secret until she was married - her father beaming like any other on her wedding day. Then, unable to bear it any longer, she told her story to this church elder, Maurice Hadley. Was there any suggestion whatsoever that the police be informed?
NATALIE WEBB: None at all. The opposite, actually. Maurice said to me that the authorities shouldn't be notified because it would be a bad witness and that they would be able to handle the situation.
REPORTER: So Maurice Hadley told you quite specifically not to go to the police?
NATALIE WEBB: Yes, yes, and no psychiatrists or psychologists either for me because I was having difficulties.
REPORTER: Why did he ban psychiatrists or psychologists from seeing you?
NATALIE WEBB: Because they're worldly and they are possibly Satanic and could fill my head with rubbish.
REPORTER: Incredibly, Natalie's story is the norm, not the exception, for child abuse victims in the Jehovah's Witnesses. Simon Thomas was 12 when he fell prey to this man, Robert Souter, of the Corrimal congregation on the NSW south coast. Even when Souter admitted his crimes to church elders, he was allowed to continue as a Jehovah's Witness. He also continued to molest other children. Was there any suggestion that anybody go to the police over this?
SIMON THOMAS, CHILD ABUSE VICTIM: No, none at all. My parents spoke to elders locally, they spoke to travelling overseers, and they were told that they shouldn't go to the police and the best thing to do would be to keep the congregation clean, not say anything, pray more and leave it to Jehovah.
REPORTER: How can you keep the congregation clean by keeping quiet and covering up something like this, when the person who's unclean is allowed back in?
SIMON THOMAS: Well, I don't know. I don't know.
REPORTER: Today, some disturbing answers, clear evidence that the Watchtower Society routinely tries to pervert the course of justice in child abuse cases by obstructing police investigations.
JIM DONALD, FORMER ELDER: Well, this is my copy of an elders' book and these are my handwritten notes taken down at the dictation from the circuit overseer.
REPORTER: Jim Donald is a former church elder now blowing the whistle on his fellow brothers with details of an edict so sensitive, it was never committed to paper.
JIM DONALD: This was a letter to all bodies of elders.
REPORTER: And it says here "child abuse confidential". What is it telling us there?
JIM DONALD: It's saying to us here "If interviewed by social workers or police or other authorities, "do not reveal if a confession has been made. "Contact society immediately."
REPORTER: So if a child abuser has said, "Yes, I did it", you're not to tell the police that?
JIM DONALD: No, not at all.
REPORTER: Do you think that's obstruction?
JIM DONALD: Obviously. Obviously.
REPORTER: Jim Donald is a Justice of the Peace who once spread Jehovah's word as a church elder in the northern NSW town of Glen Innes. Now he confines himself to spreading news of worldly matters on his paper round, having abandoned the church four years ago.
JIM DONALD: We were to resist every approach by the authorities to willingly give over any information.
REPORTER: And you knew, did you, that that was the agenda, that you were not to cooperate?
JIM DONALD: Absolutely. You see, every instance like that is to be seen as an attack against pure worship and against Jehovah's name, and so what they call theocratic warfare is to take place.
REPORTER: Theocratic warfare?
JIM DONALD: Yes.
REPORTER: What does that mean?
JIM DONALD: That means we are in a battle situation.
REPORTER: With the police? With the State?
JIM DONALD: With the State.
ANDY FARRELL, FORMER MEMBER: They have a phrase they refer to which is theocratic warfare, and that is basically that it's acceptable to lie or to cover over things if it's for the good of God's purpose.
REPORTER: Andy Farrell left the Jehovah's Witnesses five years ago after a lifetime's association.
ANDY FARRELL: They won't condone breaking the law where it's a more black and white issue, say it was a murder case or something like that, but there are certainly a lot of problems of a lesser scale that the church tries to deal with internally that probably belong in a court of law.
REPORTER: Child abuse?
ANDY FARRELL: Yeah, exactly.
REPORTER: You've written here "search warrants and subpoenas". Now, what did they tell you?
JIM DONALD: They may make a forced entry into the hall. So we were encouraged to stand in front of the door and not to willingly open the door for them.
REPORTER: Officially, the church denies all knowledge of the concept of theocratic warfare, but Jim Donald's account of the verbal instruction not to cooperate with police was confirmed to Sunday by another former elder, though he wouldn't be filmed. There's nothing on paper, right?
JIM DONALD: No.
REPORTER: Nothing on paper at all?
JIM DONALD: No.
REPORTER: Do you think this is because their legal department would have known they might have a problem with this in the future?
JIM DONALD: Oh, I think so, yeah.
REPORTER: Because they've got a big problem with this, haven't they?
JIM DONALD: Absolutely, yes.
REPORTER: And the man who was once the society's own lawyer agrees.
REV WARRYN STUCKEY, FORMER WATCHTOWER SOCIETY LAWYER: I think it can have the practical effect of perverting the course of justice.
REPORTER: It could?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: It could have that practical effect.
REV WARRYN STUCKEY ADDRESSING CHURCH: Let's commence our service by singing together our first hymn number 673 - 'There is a redeemer'.
REPORTER: The Reverend Warryn Stuckey has left behind the law and the Jehovah's Witnesses to become an Anglican priest. It was a short journey physically, for his church is a stone's throw from the Watchtower's Sydney headquarters. But in personal and theological terms, his was a momentous defection and as a former elder and director of Watchtower companies, he's a potent witness against his former associates.
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: I could imagine that if it was a case of any other crime, like murder or something, that there would be full cooperation and why in this case there is not suggests that there is something that they're protecting.
REPORTER: Protecting the church's reputation or even protecting child abusers perhaps?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: Or particular child abusers.
REPORTER: The Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact, routinely shield paedophiles from the law - as in the case of Robert Souter, allowing them to offend again and again. It's been called a 'paedophile paradise'. Would you agree with that?
JIM DONALD: Yeah, I've heard that, yes.
REPORTER: Would you agree with that?
JIM DONALD: Yes.
REPORTER: You would?
JIM DONALD: Yes.
REPORTER: Paedophile paradise?
ANDY FARRELL: Yes.
REPORTER: You'd agree with that?
ANDY FARRELL: I think that's true.
REPORTER: So this was the body of the Kingdom Hall here?
SIMON THOMAS: Yes.
REPORTER: And in the greatest betrayal of all, far from suffering the little children, the church has inflicted untold suffering that lingers into adulthood.
SIMON THOMAS: I remember that the first time he actually touched me and did something to me, I just - that was a real life-changing moment. It was terrible. I just knew it would never be the same after that.
REPORTER: For years, Simon Thomas has privately nursed the hurt of a blighted childhood at the Kingdom Hall. Now he wants his story told of how the church protected his abuser, Robert Souter.
SIMON THOMAS: It was supposed to be a really nice, safe place, but it wasn't for me or a lot of other kids.
REPORTER: You now know, don't you, that after Souter was abusing you, he was abusing a whole host of others?
SIMON THOMAS: Yes.
REPORTER: How many?
SIMON THOMAS: I know of 10 personally, but the police that I've spoken to have said there's around 40.
REPORTER: 40 others?
SIMON THOMAS: That they know of.
REPORTER: After you?
SIMON THOMAS: After me.
REPORTER: If the church had listened to the pleas that you were making, how many of those kids could have been saved?
SIMON THOMAS: Well, all of them, I think.
REPORTER: All of them - 40 kids?
SIMON THOMAS: I think all of them could have been saved.
REPORTER: Ingleburn, south-west Sydney, the Watchtower's Bethel or House of God, its sprawling Australian headquarters. More than 300 people live and work on this site, that includes a publishing arm printing Watchtower material in 70 languages. In the legal department here, every instance of child abuse known to the church is carefully filed away, but it's not reported to the authorities. The church regards such cases as confidential. So, just how many child abusers are there on the files in there? Well, the church tells us pointedly, it's none of our business. But at every turn in this investigation we came across victims unwilling to speak out, not because of their abusers, but because of the church - fearful of losing their friends, even their families. The church calls it "Keeping the congregation clean". Not of paedophiles, but of anything that damages the Watchtower's reputation. How do you think you're going to be treated by the church from now on?
SIMON THOMAS: I don't know. It's yet to be seen. But I would rather say something than to just be quiet and wait any longer.
REPORTER: Surprisingly, Simon still counts himself a witness, whereas Natalie Webb has left the church behind, unable to come to terms with the blind eye it turned to her father's depravity.
NATALIE WEBB: Because my dad wanted me to have sex with animals and have lesbian liaisons and like all these things.
REPORTER: And you told them that?
NATALIE WEBB: Oh yeah, yeah, they knew, and they said "We don't need to know details to make a decision. We're being guided by God".
PREACHER: Jehovah, our God of love, we come before your lofty throne and ask that we can be heard by you.
REPORTER: But before we examine these cases in detail, some understanding is needed of what sets the Jehovah's Witnesses apart, what makes their critics doubt they'll ever be shamed into reform by the kind of allegations that have forced changes in the mainstream churches, like the Anglicans and Roman Catholics. Is there any chance whatsoever that this organisation can reform itself?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: No.
REPORTER: None?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: None.
REPORTER: So if there's going to be any reform of their handling of child abuse, it's going to have to be imposed on them?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: Yes.
REPORTER: To Jehovah's Witnesses, there's only one true religion - theirs. Jehovah God, the only God, his word in the Bible to be taken literally. The act of baptism through total immersion symbolises total surrender to Jehovah and his only legitimate authority on earth, the Watchtower Society. Witnesses live in what they call "the truth", the rest of us in "the world", a world the church would have it governed by Satan.
PREACHER: If you decide you want to do some of your own thing, well, you can. But be careful, because this world is deceived. It's deceived by the Devil.
REPORTER: And Satan's temptations abound, even across a crowded room. Jehovah's Witnesses aren't allowed to marry outside the church, a source of much heartache in itself. What were the circumstances that led to you leaving?
JIM DONALD: I attended a son's wedding.
REPORTER: Your own son?
JIM DONALD: My own son, yeah.
REPORTER: What was wrong with that?
JIM DONALD: Well, he was marrying a young lass who was an Anglican. Now, all other churches are considered as children of the Devil. So they said - and I quote from the man who was the branch coordinator at the time - "You don't give your children to the Philistines."
REPORTER: But the strictures go on. Jehovah's Witnesses can't vote, can't join the military, aren't allowed to celebrate Christmas, even their own birthdays.
ANDY FARRELL: Birthdays because they see it as bringing too much attention to a single person. With Christmas, I think everybody understands that a lot of the symbolism associated with Christmas obviously isn't Christian, it's come from other practices around the world and they use that as part of their justification.
REPORTER: And most controversial of all, Jehovah's Witnesses can't have blood transfusions, a dictate based on an obscure biblical passage that's cost many thousands of lives worldwide.
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: I was 18 at the time, my brother was 20. He shot himself in the next room. Um, he shot himself in the head. We rushed in there, he was bleeding from every - you know, from his ears, his nose, everything. My first thought, I said to my parents "Whatever you do, don't let them give him a blood transfusion".
REPORTER: So you'd been brainwashed?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: I had been brainwashed. That is what I thought, he mustn't have a blood transfusion. Here's my brother dying in front of me, and that was my first thought.
REPORTER: Your priority.
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: My priority.
REPORTER: How do you feel about that?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: Oh, on the verge of tears now as I think about it. It was just so callous, so... yeah, that's what the religion does.
REPORTER: Bad stuff.
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: Bad stuff. Bad stuff.
SIMON THOMAS: Some of it actually here inside the hall...
REPORTER: And then there's the child abuse, all the elements of exploitation, betrayal and cover-up present in the saga of what happened to Simon Thomas. He actually molested you inside the church itself?
SIMON THOMAS: Inside the Kingdom Hall, yeah, yep.
REPORTER: Amazing.
SIMON THOMAS: It is, looking back it was amazing.
REPORTER: And equally amazing, Natalie Webb's story. Her father's abuse compounded by the callous indifference of church leaders when it was brought to their attention. You must have been devastated?
NATALIE WEBB: Well, I tried to take my own life a few weeks later because I couldn't cope with it, mm.
REPORTER: So you tried to commit suicide?
NATALIE WEBB: Mm.
REPORTER: As a result of that, did you get any help at all from them?
NATALIE WEBB: I got a counselling session from them saying that it was due to me not forgiving my father, that's why I wasn't coping.
SIMON THOMAS: Well, I was told that to endure until the end is a... is to be faithful. It demonstrates your faith. And I was also told to leave it to Jehovah because Jehovah will work it out, but why can't we expose these things that are happening and then leave it to Jehovah?
REPORTER: In part two, the shocking details of these cover-ups. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about the sex abuse case involving Natalie Webb. And we confront the elders, who in Jehovah's name and with the church's backing, kept the authorities at bay. Do you recall telling her that she shouldn't go to the police?
MAURICE HADLEY, CHURCH ELDER: Not at all.
REPORTER: She says you did?
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, that's her word against mine, isn't it?
REPORTER: Like many victims of child abuse, Natalie Webb kept her secret into adulthood, but at the age of 26, she could cope no longer. It was her husband who finally brought matters to a head.
NATALIE WEBB: He rang up my father and said, "We can't live with this anymore. It has to come out in the open. "I'll give you a week to go to the elders."
REPORTER: But Victor Webb wasn't about to confess, so he was exposed. OK, so your husband goes to the elders. Which elder did he go and see?
NATALIE WEBB: Maurice Hadley.
MAURICE HADLEY: Maurice Hadley, yes, I'm Maurice Hadley.
REPORTER: Hi - Graham Davis from the Sunday program. I just wanted talk to you about the sex abuse case involving Natalie Webb.
MAURICE HADLEY: Oh, right.
REPORTER: You know her father?
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, indeed I do.
REPORTER: You used to play tennis with him, didn't you?
MAURICE HADLEY: (Laughs) Where did you get all this information?
REPORTER: Well, we have our sources. Do you still have any contact with Vic?
MAURICE HADLEY: Oh, occasionally.
REPORTER: What did Maurice Hadley say to him?
NATALIE WEBB: Um well, he was very shocked and couldn't believe it.
REPORTER: Because your father had been so devout?
NATALIE WEBB: And they were quite friendly.
REPORTER: What do you think about what he did to his daughter?
MAURICE HADLEY: Oh, I think it's deplorable. Absolutely disgusting.
REPORTER: Why had...
MAURICE HADLEY: And I have never ever condoned that man's behaviour.
REPORTER: As senior elder at the local Kingdom Hall, Maurice Hadley formed a judicial committee, the way the church deals with all breaches of its code of behaviour, from smoking a cigarette, through to serious crimes.
NATALIE WEBB: There were three elders, including him, in that committee. And they apparently - so Maurice told me - spoke to Bethel in Sydney and decided amongst themselves that no-one should know about it, it should be a private reproof.
REPORTER: So, for sexually abusing his daughter from the age of four, a crime he readily admitted, all Victor Webb got was a reprimand behind closed doors. A private reproof?
NATALIE WEBB: A private, yep so, and then he would be put on a course of bible studies, because that's what was wrong with him - spiritually he was sick, so he was told.
REPORTER: At the very least, Natalie Webb had wanted her father disfellowshipped - expelled from the congregation - the ultimate sanction for Jehovah's Witnesses. It didn't happen. Why didn't the elders of the church disfellowship him for what he did?
MAURICE HADLEY: Why didn't they?
REPORTER: Yep. Why didn't YOU?
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, I'm not the decision maker.
REPORTER: You were.
MAURICE HADLEY: No, no, I was only one of them - I was a committee - part of the committee at the time.
REPORTER: Can you tell me why he wasn't disfellowshipped?
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, not now I can't.
NATALIE WEBB: I'd believed all my life that when you do something wrong, you get disfellowshipped, and I guess I went a little bit crazy and I just couldn't work it out.
REPORTER: A secret deliberation, a private reproof, no recourse whatsoever to the proper authorities. Did you go to the police?
MAURICE HADLEY: ..which is a reasonable - no, I didn't.
REPORTER: Why not?
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, it was something for the family to decide and do.
NATALIE WEBB: Maurice said to me that the authorities shouldn't be notified because it would be a bad witness and that they would be able to handle the situation.
REPORTER: So Maurice Hadley told you quite specifically...
NATALIE WEBB: Mmm-hmm, yes.
REPORTER: ..not to go to the police?
NATALIE WEBB: Yes.
MAURICE HADLEY: Yeah, and I say that that's not true.
REPORTER: You swear by that?
MAURICE HADLEY: I swear by that categorically.
REPORTER: You never said that to her?
MAURICE HADLEY: Never said that to her.
REPORTER: Yet here's something that lends weight to Natalie's claim - a letter from her mother to Maurice Hadley and the other elders in 1997 -
"Your inability and reluctance to deal with the police shows we would have been waiting forever."
REPORTER: By now, the family had had enough and had gone to the police themselves.
NATALIE WEBB: Because I'd never had any dealings with the police, I was very apprehensive, but they were just the most compassionate, wonderful lot of people, and I was so surprised. I got more caring and concern from them than I did from any elder. Genuine caring.
REPORTER: Victor Webb pleaded guilty in the Victorian County Court to eight counts of indecent assault and seven counts of incest. He was sent to jail for 10 years, but the church elders supported the criminal, not his victim.
NATALIE WEBB: They sent three representatives from the congregation to be with Dad, yep, and...
REPORTER: During the trial?
NATALIE WEBB: During the trial, and no-one was sent for me, and in fact, they ignored us when we walked into the court, they wouldn't even speak to us. I guess they thought I was Satanic or heading down that way, yeah.
REPORTER: But the real evil-doer is still being supported behind bars. You go and see him in jail?
MAURICE HADLEY: I visit him periodically.
REPORTER: So you go and see him in prison?
MAURICE HADLEY: About twice a year.
REPORTER: And why do you do that?
MAURICE HADLEY: Why do I do it?
REPORTER: Mm.
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, don't you you believe that people can change?
REPORTER: Even now, Victor Webb hasn't been disfellowshipped, though the private reproof became a public reproof when the police became involved.
MAURICE HADLEY: Yes, before all onlookers, other members of the congregation were advised of his situation so that parents could, if they chose to, take precautionary steps to avoid situations that might compromise their children.
REPORTER: And that was it. How do you feel about the church now?
NATALIE WEBB: Mm, um... I'm still very disappointed. The more I hear, I just am so saddened that it's so endemic and everywhere. It's very saddening.
REPORTER: And there are other cover-ups in the church that have had even more serious consequences, allowing paedophiles to offend again and again. What happened to Simon Thomas is, by any measure, a shocking indictment of the Jehovah's Witnesses and their wilful disregard of the secular law. Now this is where he brought you or followed you quite a bit, wasn't it?
SIMON THOMAS: Yep.
REPORTER: We're back at the place where, aged just 12, Simon first encountered his abuser, Robert Souter.
SIMON THOMAS: You know, he'd touch and feel and he'd laugh about it or he'd give me a clip around the ear, give me a good whack, and...
REPORTER: Just to make sure you went along with him?
SIMON THOMAS: ..just to make sure I, yeah. And then he'd go back up inside.
REPORTER: And then there were the bible study sessions at Robert Souter's home.
SIMON THOMAS: Probably the worst of what happened to me happened here at this house.
REPORTER: And we're talking about extreme abuse?
SIMON THOMAS: Yeah, extreme, yeah, extreme abuse. At first it was almost surreal. It was like it wasn't happening, but I was afraid to say anything. It's just the usual - I was just afraid because I didn't want my parents to be upset and I didn't want the congregation to be upset, I didn't want bad things said about Jehovah's Witnesses, so I basically just...
REPORTER: Kept it to yourself?
SIMON THOMAS: ..kept it to myself, copped it on the chin.
REPORTER: For how long?
SIMON THOMAS: For about three years.
REPORTER: Then one night, a shocking revelation. When Simon's younger brother has a nervous breakdown on a church trip to the NT.
SIMON THOMAS: He phoned my parents to tell them that he'd been abused by Robert Souter, and it was horrific, the situation was terrible. So my father approached one of the elders and said, "Look, Robert Souter has done this and this and this to my son." So the elder said, "OK, we'll take care of it." And I'd heard this, obviously, and I approached the elder that my father spoke to and I said, "Look, my brother's telling the truth because it's also happened to me."
REPORTER: Can you tell me the name of that elder?
SIMON THOMAS: That elder that we spoke to at that time was John Wingate.
REPORTER: John Wingate?
JOHN WINGATE, CHURCH ELDER: That's right.
REPORTER: Yeah, I'm Graham Davis from the Sunday program at Channel 9. I just wanted to talk to you about Robert Souter and the abuse of the Thomas boys in Wollongong.
JOHN WINGATE: No comment.
REPORTER: The boys first came to you, didn't they, the family first came to you?
JOHN WINGATE: No comment.
REPORTER: Well, Simon Thomas has told us that, so we know that. John Wingate is still an elder of the Cooma congregation in southern NSW, where Robert Souter had moved and we now know, had begun abusing children at the Kingdom Hall there. What did Wingate say to you?
SIMON THOMAS: Well, he said - he seemed to take it very seriously and he said, "Look." He said, "We'll chase it up and leave it with me." And that was the last we heard of it.
REPORTER: You said to him, "Leave it with me." He says that's the last he heard of it. Did you feel that you had any responsibility to get back to this family.
JOHN WINGATE: I have no comment to make to you. No, I have no comment to make to you.
REPORTER: Unbeknown to the family, John Wingate and the other elders did act. They disfellowshipped Robert Souter, expelled him from the congregation. But it wasn't long before the Thomas family got some devastating news.
SIMON THOMAS: It was around about the six months and they reinstated him into the Cooma congregation.
REPORTER: What did you think when you were told that?
SIMON THOMAS: I couldn't believe it. I was stunned and I was unbelievably upset.
REPORTER: Now, what that family wants to know is why he was reinstated into the church around six months later?
JOHN WINGATE: Ring the Watchtower Society of Australia and they'll answer all your questions regarding that situation.
REPORTER: Well, can you tell me, sir, why you...
JOHN WINGATE: I cannot make comments on it.
REPORTER: Why can't you speak about it?
JOHN WINGATE: Because I'm not at liberty to.
REPORTER: Why?
JOHN WINGATE: Because I'm not.
REPORTER: You handled the case.
JOHN WINGATE: That's none of your business.
SIMON THOMAS: I spoke to an elder down there and he said Robert Souter was repentant so when you're repentant, you're allowed back into the congregation.
JOHN WINGATE: Do you have a problem with hearing? Do you have a hearing impediment? I just told you...
REPORTER: I'm trying to find some answers.
JOHN WINGATE: You're not going to get answers off me because I've told you...
REPORTER: So in the absence of any answers from the elders, let's look at the Watchtower's guidelines for dealing with child abuse -
"When a judicial committee determines that a child molester is repentant and will remain a member of the Christian congregation, it would be appropriate to speak to him very frankly, strongly urging him as to the dangers of hugging or holding children on his lap."
REPORTER: I mean, what sort of a deterrent is that?
JIM DONALD: (Laughs) Well, it's none, obviously, because those sorts of things would be just, what would be in public view. The thing that escapes the society's viewpoint on this child molesting situation is that all of this takes place in secret.
REPORTER: So secret is child abuse that Simon Thomas thought he was alone in being abused by Robert Souter, until he found out about his younger brother and then later, about another brother as well. Did you have any sense of guilt that you might have been able to save your two brothers?
SIMON THOMAS: I did, from then on, and I still have that feeling. And it's part of the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing today. Because if I'd said something back then, I could have saved - I could have helped, maybe in some way, dozens of others.
REPORTER: But maybe not. For in the most extraordinary dictate of all, the Jehovah's Witnesses rulebook insists on this - "There must be two or three eyewitnesses, not just persons repeating what they have heard. No action can be taken if there is only one witness."
REPORTER: Blind Freddy knows that a child abuser doesn't sit around waiting for two or three witnesses before doing anything.
JIM DONALD: That's correct.
REPORTER: How is it that this escapes the elders of the church?
JIM DONALD: They rely on a biblical text which says that all matters are to be established on the mouth of two or three witnesses.
REPORTER: As Jim Donald tells it, this rule has stifled the plaintive cries of victims time and time again and was a major factor in his decision to leave the church behind for good.
JIM DONALD: A young lass made allegations that this particular individual had interfered with her sexual organs. Yeah. REPORTER: And you were given the job of investigating...
JIM DONALD: Yes.
REPORTER: ..this allegation? What happened?
JIM DONALD: Well, all we could do is pose the questions.
REPORTER: To him?
JIM DONALD: To him, and obviously he said, "Oh, no, no, that's all a mistake and she's had problems. And you know, she comes from a weird family," sort of thing.
REPORTER: So in the absence of the church's rule that there be at least two or three witnesses, this girl was not to be believed?
JIM DONALD: That's right.
REPORTER: And that was the end of the matter?
JIM DONALD: Yep.
REPORTER: But for her father's confession, that's just what would have happened to Natalie Webb. If he'd denied it and it was only your word against him, because of the two witness rule, nothing would have happened. Is that fair to assume?
NATALIE WEBB: That's correct.
SIMON THOMAS: This one's called 'The Wrestle'. It's actually wrestling with a decision on whether I should actually go to the police.
REPORTER: For Simon Thomas, years went by, as he and his family nursed their trauma - black years chronicled in his paintings.
SIMON THOMAS: This one there, that's called 'Life at 15'.
REPORTER: Then, six years ago, Simon approached the church elders again.
SIMON THOMAS: And I said to the elders there that I was really struggling with what happened to me and that I needed some help. I wasn't coping.
REPORTER: And what did they say to you?
SIMON THOMAS: They said to me back then, they said - and these are the exact words - They said, "Obviously for this problem to be bothering you "for so long, "you're not praying enough."
REPORTER: You're kidding?
SIMON THOMAS: That's exactly what was said to me, so I shut up again for another year or two.
REPORTER: And then?
SIMON THOMAS: And then I decided that I was going to go to the police.
REPORTER: Robert Souter was sent to jail for a minimum of three years by Judge John Goldring, who had this to say about the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society -
"The church authorities took it upon themselves to act as if they were the civil authorities which they had no right to do. This matter was not reported to the police, as it should have been and I am surprised that the police have not taken any action against the church authorities. I hope they will do so. The State has responsibility of protecting young people and all citizens have a serious moral responsibility to assist it in doing so. I cannot criticise the church sufficiently seriously for not having reported this matter".
REPORTER: Do you feel any moral responsibility for the fact that he continued to abuse other children?
JOHN WINGATE: I think you have a moral responsibility to respect my wishes and follow the procedure I've given you and that is to contact the Watchtower Society of Australia. Don't harass me.
REPORTER: Every child in this photograph with Simon Thomas was abused by Robert Souter. As we now know, the total number Souter molested could be as high as 40.
SIMON THOMAS: I think all of them could have been saved, but I could have been saved myself because I found out that one of the sisters in the congregation had spoken to an elder and said that she'd seen Robert Souter doing something to HER son and this was before Robert Souter abused me.
PREACHER: Remember our hearts and minds are dedicated to Jehovah and we must be holy because he is holy.
REPORTER: We asked the Watchtower Society a series of questions about its handling of the cases of Robert Souter and Victor Webb and asked them to tell us how many child abusers they've uncovered in their ranks. We were told it wasn't the business of the media to know, though the church did say very few were elders or those holding positions of responsibility. In this letter, Viv Mouritz, the society's Australian president, declined our request for an interview and said about the claims of Simon Thomas and Natalie Webb -
"My inquiries indicate that the elders involved did not give instructions not to report the abuse to the police".
REPORTER: It's at odds with everything we've heard from a number of sources, including a judge. But on previous form, the congregation will be told our story is the work of Satan.
PREACHER: The media out there, with all its power and its might, it presents human nature in three Ds, three Ds - debauchery of every kind, deception of every kind and demonism of every kind - and we need to be aware of that.
REPORTER: But the authorities and the courts need to be aware of something else, something far more sinister - the church's notion of the truth. In this book 'Insight on the Scriptures', it says here, doesn't it "Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth".
JIM DONALD: Yes.
REPORTER: Would your average judge or magistrate be somebody who was entitled to know the truth?
JIM DONALD: It would be very difficult for a person not to uphold what the society would want. They would back the society, and they would see that as backing Jehovah, in which case, these people, the court, is not entitled to know the truth.
REPORTER: Is not?
JIM DONALD: No. And in that case they would say that's not a lie.
REPORTER: So it's quite possible, given this definition of lying, that a Jehovah's Witness could go before a civil court in this country and lie to their back teeth?
JIM DONALD: Yes.
REPORTER: And this from the man who was once the society's own lawyer.
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: That has always been, as long as I remember, has been Watchtower doctrine, that only those who are entitled to know the truth deserve the truth.
REPORTER: Right, but if they determined that a particular judge or a particular court is not entitled to know the truth, they won't tell the truth?
REV WARRYN STUCKEY: Correct.
REPORTER: Do you recall telling her that she shouldn't go to the police?
MAURICE HADLEY: Not at all.
REPORTER: She says you did?
MAURICE HADLEY: Oh, well that's her word against mine, isn't it?
REPORTER: So who is entitled to know the truth?
MAURICE HADLEY: I mean, who do you think you are anyway? Since when have you become the bees knees on all of this?
REPORTER: So is Vic repentant, is he, is that it?
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, I would like to think so, but that's not for me to judge, is it? That's between him and his God ultimately, is it not?
REPORTER: Him and his God?
MAURICE HADLEY: Well, don't you think that?
PREACHER: Brothers, as we continue to pray for help in controlling our sinful inclinations, we will see Jehovah help us.
REPORTER: Leave it to Jehovah, the constant refrain of those who purport to live in the truth and see themselves as his only true representatives. Their victims want them brought to account in the world, an official investigation into the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
NATALIE WEBB: It needs reform forced on it and waiting for Jehovah just doesn't work.
JIM DONALD: I think it needs to have the lid taken off, yeah, because young kids' lives are being ruined.
REPORTER: So it's time that governments cracked down on this organisation?
NATALIE WEBB: Oh, definitely, mm. I'd hate to think how many children are being abused now.
REPORTER: Even as we speak?
NATALIE WEBB: As we speak.
SIMON THOMAS: I find it hard, even though there are beautiful people within the Jehovah's Witnesses - a lot are still my friends - I find it extremely difficult to have a bond and to be a part of a brotherhood with them now. The organisation - the organisational procedures need to change because kids cannot suffer like that anymore. It's wrong.
I would love to hear everyone's comments, and also, if I missed any Television Programs, please Post them here!
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THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS CAUSING THE TRUTH ABOUT THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY TO BE REVEALED AROUND THE WORLD! AMEN!
Berean

Outstanding. The light gets brighter and brighter.
*** kc 100-1 11 Kingdom Illustrations ***

9 According to Matthews description of this "tree," "the birds of heaven come and find lodging among its branches." Apparently, they are the same "birds" of the earlier parable that gobble up the "word of the kingdom" that falls by the roadside. (Matthew 13:4, 19, 31, 32) Those "birds" roost in the hundreds of sectarian branches of the "tree." They represent the apostate "man of lawlessness," the clergy of ~~Christendom~~ [The Society]. They will lose their sheltered perch when God chops down that "tree," along with all other false religion. Stand clear, now! For the crash of that "tree" is imminent!Compare 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; 2:3; Matthew 7:19-23.
10
Appropriately, Luke presents the parable of the "mustard grain" as a follow-up to Jesus denunciation of the apostate religionists of his day. And as if to emphasize the point, both Matthew and Luke next portray Jesus as giving the parable of the "leaven." (Matthew 13:32, 33; Luke 13:10-21) When used figuratively in the Bible, leaven always has an unfavorable connotation, as when Jesus warned his disciples to "watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees," and when the apostle Paul counseled Christians to clear away the "leaven of badness and wickedness."Matthew 16:6, 11, 12; 1 Corinthians 5:6-8; Galatians 5:7-9.
OK. I'm just being a smart ass with the above.
Still, bring to light the corruption of those in charge of any organization is the responsibility of all it's members.
Berean
TTBoy

Besides making my blood boil...thank u soooo much for posting the transcript on the CH 9 story!! I guess I have to just sit and wait until I can get some "official" transcript and video to show my family - I did order one from CH 9 - not sure if I'll get one though. I had to get an "official transcript" from Dateline for $15 because that was the only way my family would read it.
My comments:
I was very pleased with the emphasis that everyone but them is "SATAN".
Also the insight on "Theocratic Warfare" and justified lying.
I like the judges comments about criminal charges being brought against the JWs.
The statement that it is none of the media's or state's business about what has taken place.......I had to pick my jaw up off the floor on that one.
I have great sadness for the abused - the reason I mentioned the 4 comments before expressing my sorrow for the victims is because the first 4 may prevent anymore abuse cover-ups.
In the follow up I would like to see more indept in how they place themselves higher than the secular authorties - the very ones they say are placed in their possition by God. Maybe their view of the internet and how it spreads "lies", using their quotes, because it really exposesses them as liars.
This reporting was by far the best I have seen. It was simply amazing and very damaging to the JWs policies. You Austies pulled off the gloves and beat the sh*t out of the WTS. I am so happy - yet so sad. I cheered/screamed out loud and shed tears.
If I can in any way help out let me know. Unspeakable thx to all who were involved! Hats off to those brave people who had the courage to speak out and say, I was wronged and something needs to be done about it!
TT
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Thanks for your Replies! I will comment on them soon.
Below is another Television Program about the SILENTLAMBS:
izobcenec posted this info on another Thread:
This TV program was aired recently (September 3rd 2002) in Slovenia, Europe, on the biggest slovenian TV station, POP tv (www.pop-tv.si)
About 250.000 people saw it. We translated the whole TV program. Video will be available soon. Enjoy!
JEHOVAHS WITNESSES IN SLOVENIA TRANSCRIPT OF THE THE TV PROGRAM
Otos parents joined the Jehovahs Witnesses when he was four years old. By reason of their religious rules he wasnt allowed to celebrate his birthdays, new year or any other, as they name them, pagan holidays. He was dissuaded from associating with worldly children, watching TV or films, which had no reference to the faith.
OTO: As long as you are a Jehovahs Witness being with other people means nothing but talking about Gods Kingdom, about the wonderful news. Any other conversation is said to be throwing pearls to the swines.
The only entertainment he could enjoy beside going to school was the regular Bible study, meetings (five hours a week) and the door-to-door service.
OTO: I was always scared that some of my school-friends or teachers might answer the door. At school I was named a jehovist. I was stigmatized all the years of my school time..
Marko was their member for some years, together with his wife and his children. He disassociated himself because he could not agree with the pressure which the elders put upon the education of his children. As he created a new life after leaving the organization, he asked us not to reveal his identity.
MARKO: They dont baptize children and they pride themselves with that, but they are indoctrinated since their earliest age, before they are able to read and write. They have cassettes to watch and their parents must study with them, they should bring them to all meetings, even if they are only two or three years old.They must sit silently for two hours, if they are not quiet, they punish them physically. The physical punishment is one of the commands to the Jehovahs Witnesses.
GRAPHICS FROM A JWS PUBLICATION: BUILD UP A HAPPY FAMILY LIFE, p. 133:
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Prov. 23:13,14)
That the Jehovahs Witnesses treat the children in an extremly unusual way became quite obvious in May this year, when it was discovered, that in the USA, where the Witnesses have their headquarters, there is a list of more than 23.000 pedophiles in their ranks. Most of them were never announced to the police.
MARKO: There is a secret manual for elders where its clearly stated that such crimes should not be reported to the police.
GRAPHICS: THE SECRET ELDERS MANUAL (PAY ATTENTION TO YOURSELVES AND ALL THE FLOCK, 1982):
If the elders are informed about an illegal activity or any other delict or wrongdoing committed by a member of the community, they will not, even if it is instructed by the laws of the Church, announce it to the authorities.
OTO: The Society is a real paedophile paradise because their judicial committee needs two eyewitnesses, but in these cases usually there are no witnesses.
GRAPHICS: THE SECRET ELDERS MANUAL (PAY ATTENTION TO YOURSELVES AND ALL THE FLOCK, 1982):
What proving material is applicable?
There must be at least two or three eyewitnesses, not only the persons who repeat what they heard. If there is just one eyewitness nothing can be done.
Those victims who, although they were not allowed to, informed the police about the crimes, were later disfellowshipped. As we wished to get some further information about what is going on in this religious group we asked their spokesman, Mr Janko Novak for an interview. At first he was willing to permit the filming but when I let him know that their former members would also take part in this TV program, his answer was this:
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: I dont think we can make it. You can tell that we refused any cooperation.
Later he accepted the interview but he didn't allow us any other filming or conversation with other believers, even with no camera. When I asked him about their secret manual for elders he first denied existence of such rules:
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: A far as I know it was never, never and nowhere written that we should not report such things to the police.
THE REPORTER: Is this book yours? (she shows him the manual)
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Yes, it is. But these rules have been out of practice for many years. (he laughs nervously)
THE REPORTER: But they were in practice then?
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: That was 20 years ago, I was too young then to know
THE REPORTER: But you probably have never rules, can you show those, if it is not written anymore
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: I cannot show it you if it isnt written
THE REPORTER: May I check it out?
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Yes, you can.
THE REPORTER: Will you show me the new manual?
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Yes, I will, after the filming.
But it all came to nothing. When the camera turned off, even after having been promised I couldnt see the new manual. At the police station they didnt know to answer my question if they had ever come upon a case of paedophilia. They say that the accused persons are never asked about their religion.
Besides I was interested in some other commands. By reason of scriptural restrictions they reject the blood transfusions. What follows if an individual accepts blood if he is strictly forbidden to do it?
JANKO NOVAK: You know what would happen? If an individual accepted the transfusion if he were forced to do it, he could fall in such a bad state that he should be helped. We had cases like that and the members told us, they felt like being raped.
THE REPORTER: Would you have accepted the transfusion?
OTO: Yes, I probably would. If I wouldnt Id probably be disfellowshipped.
In the central hospital I was told that so far they havent had any problems with patients rejecting blood.The main reason is a low number of Witnesses (1850), so they havent had a case where they should deal with serious complications. Nevertheless there have been many death cases abroad, with many children among them.
OTO: If a person refuses the transfusion and dies, then they write articles on him in their publications They make him a hero, they praise him almost like god.
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: I know none of such cases (that anybody died for rejecting blood)
GRAPHICS: A JWS PUBLICATION: GOOD NEWS WHICH WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY, p. 178:
It has already happened in rare cases however that the conscious objection prevented some people from accepting blood and they died therefore. As they respected Gods law faithfully they will be resurrected in Gods paradise.
What makes a person to become a Jehovahs Witness and what is in fact going on within this group? I asked these questions some other former members, for example a woman who, as she says, wishes to forget her bitter life experience as soon as possible.
THE WOMAN: I was going through a terrible life situation and that time I was glad to hear that something better was promised to us. The world with no pain and no suffering. At that time those words made me deeply relieved.
Their system of collecting new members seems to be built up to detail. They write down quite everything about the people who let them enter their homes.
THE WOMAN: They write down in fact anything they notice about the person they are talking to: how he reacted, what questions he asked, his interests, his education and what should be done that the preaching to him should be as much successful as possible.
GRAPHICS: NOTES ABOUT INTERESTED PERSONS
Soon she found out that things are not so wonderful as they had been promising to her. Any doubt was automatically suppressed.
THE WOMAN: Spying on everybody is obligatory. Every member must report any wrongdoing which is comitted by some other believer. If he refuses to obey he risks disfelowshippment himself.
MARKO: These things go so far that a husband is to denounce his wife and vice versa.
Oto was betrayed by his then friends. He was disfellowshipped for being intimate with a girl who did not belong to their religion. The other two disassociated themselves.
They all agree that the deepest pain was the absolute isolation which followed their leaving the group. The believers are commanded to avoid any contact with a former member.
OTO: As a matter of fact theres no worst punishment from the threat that you would be disfellowshipped because you live in your own world and you know no other world except the world of Jehovahs Witnesses.
OTO: Everybody shuns you, even the contacts with your own parents are limited, especially from the spiritual side, the others are avoiding you on the street, looking away.
THE WOMAN: It happens very often that, if they don't live in the same household, the children shun their own parents, brothers, sisters grandparents are not allowed to see their grandchildren anymore. Such cases are very frequent.
Mr. Novak denied everything that I had been told by the former members.
JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Its just calumny brought out by some individuals who left the ranks of Jehovahs Witnesses, I dont know for what reasons which may be best clear to themselves.
The former members explained their reasons for leaving the group on the web sites. (www.izobceni.streznik.org, www.jehovovexprice.tk) They say that it is the only way to warn the present and the future members against the abuse they experienced themselves.
OTO: Now I can see that I was manipulated and that everything was just a delusion.
His only wish after his 20 years life among the Witnesses is trying to compensate the lost years of the childhood. At the age of 25 he celebrated his first birthday.
END
TV PROGRAM LEADER: Former and even current members are planing a protest march at the end of september. They wan't to warn about happenings in this society.
_______________
Translated by Ema
Production: Izobceni streznik team (www.izobceni.streznik.org)
Article about this TV program: http://24ur.com/naslovnica/preverjeno/20020903_2013700.php
Commentary (in slovenian but with some interesting screenshoots of JW spokesman): http://users.volja.net/izobcenec/clanki/28.htm
Izobceni streznik: www.izobceni.streznik.org ("the disfellowshiped server")
Oto's web page: www.jehovovexprice.tk ("jehovahsXwitnesses")

SilentLambs Television Program Transcripts

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Below are the TRANSCRIPTS OF ALL OF THE SILENTLAMBS TELEVISION NEWS PROGRAMS (DATELINE, PANORAMA, CONNIE CHUNG, GERMAN TV, DAVID LETTERMAN, AND AUSTRALIA'S SILENT WITNESSES)!

YOU CAN DISTRIBUTE THIS FREELY TO ALL YOUR FAMILY, FRIENDS, NEIGHBORS, MEDIA, ANYONE! SPREAD THE NEWS!

NBC DATELINE

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BBC PANORAMA

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CNN (Cable News Network)

Berean

TTBoy

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izobcenec posted this info on another Thread:This TV program was aired recently (September 3rd 2002) in Slovenia, Europe, on the biggest slovenian TV station, POP tv (www.pop-tv.si)About 250.000 people saw it. We translated the whole TV program. Video will be available soon. Enjoy!

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izobcenec posted this info on another Thread:
This TV program was aired recently (September 3rd 2002) in Slovenia, Europe, on the biggest slovenian TV station, POP tv (www.pop-tv.si)
About 250.000 people saw it. We translated the whole TV program. Video will be available soon. Enjoy!