Israeli Refusnik opinions?

by cookie 5 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  cookie

  I am curious.

  1) Does anyone on this board have an opinion about the Refusnik movement occurring in Israel?

  2) Can anyone who has left the WT organization (for conscientious reasons) relate to the consequences of their present position?

  Cookie
• 

  mordecai

  It seems to me their conscience's bother them. It takes a lot to stand up for what you believe over there.
  I also believe that the state of Israel behaves like a Facist state so it should make things interesting for the refuseniks.
  Considering that you can't even place a Bible with a Jew sure seems like Facism to me.
  I believe the Jw's are very limited in what they can do there.
  The refuseniks are like the Jw's in some ways wouldn't you say.

  Mordecai
• 

  cookie

  Mordecai:

  I do think it is very difficult to stand up for conscientious reasons in Israel.

  You wrote:" The refuseniks are like the Jw's in some ways wouldn't you say"

  If you mean by that, they are conscientous objectors , ( I believe) there is a distiction to be made.

  JW's have been conscientious objectors. But was it because of conscience or WT directives? I cannot judge the motives of anyone,but if they had a choice some of them may have done otherwise.

  A lot of the Israeli Refusniks were already soldiers willing to defend their state until they came to the realization that a "Black Cloud" was hanging over them. This is what makes their decision appear as a truly conscientious one.

  They have come to believe (through first hand knowledge) that what they were doing in the IDF was totally incongruent with the principles of democracy and morality that their country is supposed to stand for.And they are experiencing hardships as a result. It was even suggested recently that they be put to death for their stance.

  The Refuseniks remind me more of of the disident JW's who have come to realize that groupthink negates conscience. JW's who are willing to lose so much that has become precious to them (i.e. family,friends, lifestyle,etc,)in order to remain true to that voice within.

  The children growing up in Israel have also been conditioned (from infancy)to think the way the organization wants them to think; and the responses they face for rejecting the "company line" are similar to what a JW experiences.

  But there is something that makes their stand even more outstanding.

  We are all familiar with the expression."A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends".

  Well, the Refuseniks are putting everything on the line for people who have been their enemies.To me,that is certainly greater than the love mentioned above,and it puts CONSCIENCE on a higher plane than familial love.

  I ,for one, have been inspired by this group.

  Cookie
• 

  mordecai

  I ,for one, have been inspired by this group

  Me too!

  MD
• 

  Focus

  ""mordecai"":

  Shoo! More boring even than a man who has read only one book is a man playing a broken record. Are you recruiting for some Zionist-extremist group? That is the effect which you are having - whatever you may think to the contrary.

  .

  cookie:

  It sure is high time that the Palestinians, or "Palestinians" as some (not I) prefer, had a viable autonomous state all of their own, wholly distinct from Israel. And neither side allowed violent ones from their own side to cross into the other's territory.

  The present position is highly complex. There is right and wrong on both sides. And while the Israelis have suffered a great deal (look at what happened to Israel at the hands of its neighbors from the time of its formation until that great man Anwar el-Sadat did what was necessary), on average the hapless Palestinians have suffered even more, IMO.

  It should not be forgotten the Palestinian cause is a very convenient one for anti-semitic Arabs too. It suits them to have victims of Israeli aggression to hold up to the world. Instead of using them to make political capital, I would like to see Jordan (enormous in area, by comparison to Israel) collaborating with Israel, and carving out from both the territories presently under their control appropriate land for the Palestinians, to be their land forever.

  And, do not forget, had the disgusting Nazis and their evil stooges not committed the unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust, there would never have been the motivation among the "great powers" - let alone the international consensus (in the form of a majority vote at the U.N.) on the issue - which swiftly gave the state of Israel political reality... a homeland where the Jews could be safe. In this rapid, staccato action, the rights of the existing occupants of the lands were not properly considered or legislated upon. And there lies the root of the Palestinian issue. Those ignorant of history and forensic history cannot see this, of course.

  But we all know where 'an eye for an eye leads'. Each of us has the potential to screw things up for everyone else - and the obligation not to do so. - Focus, Collected Works, 2002.

  For those with understanding, heed the wise words of warning here:

  --
  Focus
  (Santa Claws loves Anwar Sadat Class)

  Edited by - Focus on 3 December 2002 17:44:11
• 

  cookie

  Focus,

  In addition to the other interesting points that you brought up,you wrote:

  "It should not be forgotten the Palestinian cause is a very convenient one for anti-semitic Arabs too. It suits them to have victims of Israeli aggression to hold up to the world. "

  That is a very good observation;and I never even considered it. Perspective is so important to the interpretation of events isn't it.

  Cookie