Differences in countries

by Dawn 7 Replies latest jw friends

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  Dawn

  Hi all. It's been a while since I've posted - have had an awful lot going on here. But I have had a very interesting experience and was wondering if any of you that have dealt with JW's in different countries have noticed this. I'll make it as short as possible.

  My father passed away last year. I am DF'd but the only child still living near my parents, so I coordinated with the elders on a lot of the memorial arrangements. At my father's memorial I was shunned. One "sister" came up to give me a hug and say she was sorry, and another former "best friend" of mine said "sorry for your loss" as she walked past. That was it. After the services there was a gathering at my mother's house. She insisted that I be there (long story short - I've always been very close with my parents even though I'm DF'd). A few people visited with me (longtime family friends) but most people just avoided me.

  Ok - now fastforward to last month. My brother, also a JW, was murdered in Mexico. He had went down there because of health reasons and to "serve where the need was greater" - so he was in pretty good standing with the congregation. A family member had to claim the body and his assets asap so I caught a flight with my mom and we went down there the next day. The elders met us at the airport and treated us like family friends the whole time we were there. We stayed at one elder's, a very nice man who shared numerous stories with me about my brother and realy comforted my mom. At my brother's funeral everyone came up to offer condolances and talk with my mother and I - even though they all knew I was DF'd. Then they had a get together at the elder's house afterwards. I went downstairs to be "out of the way" expecting that was what I was supposed to do - he came down and asked me to come upstairs and join in the conversation with everyone else. He fixed us all drinks and we sat around telling funny stories about my brother, etc. The only time my being DF'd was ever mentioned was when I was leaving at the airport - the elder put his arm around me and encouraged me to rethink my decisions because he thought that the "truth" was the right thing. Anyways - the gist of this whole thing is that although I am DF'd - down in Mexico I was treated with respect and kindness and helped by the congregation during a really tough time. While here in America I was treated like pond scum.

  So I'm wondering - have any of you that have traveled to different countries noticed big differences in the attitudes of congregations like this? Is it the culture that makes the American congregations so cold hearted? What are your thoughts?
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  JH

  I was under the impression that no matter where you are on the globe, that you would be treated the same way(shit). But your experience is unique. But I think hypocrisy is always the bottom line. I think that your local congregation will always shun you more, because they know you and want to show how obedient they are to the Watchtower, and they want to rub it in.
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  outoftheorg

  I know the culture has something to do with it. I used to travel to Baja Calif. when I sold truck and auto parts in mexico. I also have a sister in law who is from Mexico.

  The Mexicans are very family oriented and stand up for one another. They also fight with each other like devils. It makes me think of what I have been told about Italian families & Greek families. Again this is what I have been told not what I have seen.

  One of my sister in law's brothers got df'd and there was not any shunning by his family still in Mexico. Yet my sister in law that lived in the US did shun him. Strange huh?

  Outoftheorg
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  Marcos

  I'm not sure if what I can share with you will be useful or not but, here goes.

  When I went to Bethel from our hispanic congregation in Texas in the late 1960s, I was shocked at the coldness of the "brothers" in Bethel. It was one of the reasons I was sure I had made a mistake within my first 2 weeks of Bethel service.

  As I spent more time there, the overwhelming impression I got was that if you were not "German" enough, you were nothing. Note that my understanding is that Knorr and many of the good ol boys were of German extraction. I could be wrong but that is what I was always told. Everything there seemed to be sort of on a German model, from the way the schedules and assignments were set up to the food.

  I've got no problem with Gemans. But the culture strikes a Latino as being a little cold. I have a student in Cuba who is a diplomat and went to Germany for a while and that is his impression too.

  In Texas, everyone was friendly in our cong. There were fights and the inevitable gossip (Think the gringos are bad about gossip? They are no contest!) Despite all of the problems, the atmosphere was warm. In the English cong. that my parents attended there was a lot of gossip too. But the most outstanding thing was the hierarchy. If you weren't the right sort of folks, the hicks brothers would not have much to do with you.

  I have never attended and will never attend any kh here but, in general, the latinos are slower to shun someone. It is just considered bad form here to ignore someone you know or who is connected to someone they know.

  To be fair, in the US I met many very nice people who were witnesses and had a lot of friends. It is just that the culture is different. We generally describe it as being colder.

  For what it's worth. These are only my impressions. As far as the "German" comments, perhaps some other ex-bethelite could give his or her impressions. Did you hear the same comments in Bethel?

  Marcos (of the American-loving, German-loving Class)
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  metatron

  The dominance of brothers of Anglo/Germanic extraction was noticeable back then.
  Such as:

  Knorr
  Franz
  Henschel
  Schroeder
  Larson
  Riemer
  Suiter
  Wisegarver
  
  and so on - kinda Aryan, don't ya think?

  metatron
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  Marcos

  Yes Metatron,

  kinda Aryan, don't ya think?

  Do you remember Carl Hoppe? I think he was the head cook. I think he was German. I remember the food being heavy and greasy. It was quite a change from what I was used to.

  One of my sharpest memories was Sundays. They provided one meal, breakfast. As I recall we weren't supposed to keep food in our rooms. But many of us did. It was a major coup to have a refridgerator in our rooms (that was tolerated). We used to fill it with cheese and whatever meat we could scrounge. The thought was that you were supposed to spend the day with your cong. and that THEY were supposed to feed you. That didn't happen much and at first I spend a lot of hungry Sundays.

  When you were first at the Bethel cong., who was going to feed you? Later, in my assigned cong., Adelphi Spanish in Brooklyn, the brothers and sisters were poor. They really couldn't afford to feed a hungry 18 year old all of the time. Later, my girlfriend's mom did but I knew that it was a strain so I tried not to impose that much. But I was a hungry boy!

  I remember thinking what a cabron Knorr was. I feel ashamed to say it but I really disliked him.

  But this overwhelming teutonic atmosphere just seems to dominate my memories. I felt like a complete foriegner. It seems that the culture and opinions of the leaders in any group seem to permeate the attitudes of any org. It also seemed to drive us foriegners to group together for warmth.

  My best memories are of the time I was able to spend with other Tejanos in Bethel. There were many non-hispanic brothers also who were great. But there was a definite wall between all of us lowly workers and the more "mature" brothers. You always knew you would never go anywhere in the org. or be trusted by the "good" ones.

  Guess I'm rambling. It is just now that a lot of the bs is coming back to me.

  Later,

  Marcos
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  Intuit39

  There are HUGE differences in how successful the borg is at dividing families in different countries!

  At my father's funeral in Puerto Rico, the elders came into the service to convince my immediate family that we could have no part in the service bc my Pentecostal uncle and the family's childhood Baptist preacher would both be speaking. In our confusion, we complied...to the disgust of our extended family. My father was never a Witness.

  One of my best friends now is a former bethelite from Brazil. He and his sister are both DA'd and yet Witnesses visit in their home, often staying up into the wee hours of the morning enjoying each others company. Included in the group is their pioneer mother. She has even visited me here in the states, and she graciously entertained my partner and me during our visit to Brazil this year.

  It's very interesting to me that in Brazil, the Witnesses continue to experience growth, whereas in Puerto Rico where the cult mentality overrides family values, their supposed 'growth' has stymied in the low 20K's for years....

  Thank goodness my own mother lovingly accepts all her children equally, half Witnesses, half whatever-makes-us-happy!
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  gotcha

  i'm quite curious as to the differences of jws in various countries. not only in terms of shunning but also as to how 'strict' the rules are being implemented. im from the philippines and i think that more often than not, families are very close-knit which makes me believe that shunning isn't as worse as those i read on this board. but as always it's a case to case basis some families are psycho enough to choose the org before their family members but others are wiser than that.