Question to JW lurkers on 144,000 saved ones

Gerard

The Watchtower organization states that through good works and sincere effort only 144,000 elite JWs will go to heaven. The 144,000 are mentioned in two chapters in the Bible: Revelation 7 & 14. By looking at the verses it is obvious that the 144,000 are literal Jews of the ancient tribes with no Gentiles among them (7:4-8).

They are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4). If the JW states that the usage of Jewish male virgins is figurative, what gives them the right to state that number of 144,000 is literal?

Inquiring minds want to know...

pr_capone

I have had this discussion with dubs before... they say that "virgins" is a figurative form meaning purity. They are spiritualy pure.

Edited by - pr_capone on 20 January 2003 18:31:38

Kenneson

It's amazing that JWs say that the Lamb, Mount Zion, name of the Lamb and of the Father written on their foreheads, the harps, the male virgins, (Rev. 14) are all symbolical. But the number 144,000 is literal. Very consistent, aren't they?

Gerard

Maybe 90% of the Bible is figurative. It takes good will and love to interpret it in the context it was written.

As children are exposed to continuous sexual abuse and people die from blood transfusion refusal, some sit high on their "Tower" and glorify themselves from their self-apointed power trip.

Shame...

Shakita

Hey Gerard,

That's why the Wt's interpretation holds no water. They say that the 144,000 is to be understood literally, but then claim that the 144,000 are spiritual Israelites. You can't pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what is to be understood symbolically. Some interpret the 144,000 as representative of all Christians as a group and the great crowd as individual representatives of that group. Also, there were almost as many Christians in the first century. So, what was Jesus doing for the next 1,779 years until Russell showed up. Ray Franz's book "In search of Christian Freedom" said that taking the Wt's reasoning on this would mean that only 70 Christians were found each year worldwide until Good ol' Russell showed up. Wow! Now that's a stretch!

Mr. Shakita

artful

Good point Shakita!
The WTS also makes the claim in the "United in Worship" book (which has now been replaced by the "Worship the true God" book - minus the chapter this claim is from) that during the first century and for the next 19 centuries only a heavenly hope was offered to Christians (until 1935). That means that if you were a "true Christian" during that 1900 year period you were going to heaven.

Similar to the Ray Franz reasoning (but using more liberal numbers), if we factor in the 60,000 "faithful Bible Students" on earth in 1935, plus at least 10,000 who had died between 1890-1935, plus the at least 20,000 true Christians present in the first century that would leave us with about 54,000 Christians to gather between 100CE and 1900CE.

This means that worldwide, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were only able to win over 54,000 humans during an 1800 year span of time!! I guess Jesus and the Holy Spirit are really not that powerful afterall. Even the JWs with their pathetic door-to-door presentations can gain more converts than that in 1 month (worldwide)!

Also, with regards to literal vs. figurative issue: the 12 tribes and the 12,000 per tribe in Rev 7 are said to be figurative. But somehow, multiplying 12 (figurative) x 12,000 (figurative) = 144,000 literal....bizarre!

Artful

avengers

I have been in the troof since 1969. Left in 1999. That gives me appr. 30 years of observing this issue.
When I look back I see that 90 % of the annointed in the 70's are out of the troof. The ones now annointed have typical symptoms of Paranoid Schizophrenia.

Heaven. I'm in Heaven. I get my knowledge from God. and I'm not hallucinating. Dang you. I'm one of the 144000 and don't you forget it. I am King. No I am not crazy.

cellomould

When I was a child, the anointing of the 144,000 was the only evidence I saw of God interacting with people of our time. It seemed so amazing that God gave these people a sure sign of his acceptance. The anointed had no doubts whatsoever that they were called.

Now it is obvious to me that all of the 'mystery' surrounding the anointing served to discourage younger people from even thinking about whether they had been anointed.

Think about how many people have claimed to be anointed over the years. Despite what the doctrine says, there is a steady flow of 'anointed' partaking of the emblems.

Anyhow, there are other threads that have made this point for me already. This one, by Ozzie, for example...

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=8941&site=3

And this one, by stevieb1...

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=12943&site=3

cellmould

blacksheep

Of course, anyone can see that the 144,000 would be literal. But you can't just go by the book of Revelation alone. You have to check out Ezekiel, Daniel, and oh, I think Psalms, maybe Genesis (records the 12 tribes, multiply that by 12, then do the day-for-a year thing--dang where's my calculator) anyway, there's the whole formula. I'm not that smart and could never seem to explain it well, but my mom was an absolute whiz. She'd have that NWT flippin' so fast that you couldn't help but be convinced about the 144,000, the generations, the last days, Babylon the Great Harlot, the whole 9 yards was all right there in black and white. How can you miss it?

Question to JW lurkers on 144,000 saved ones

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