gentile times?

by l3gi0n 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  l3gi0n

  Luke 21:20-28 (NIV)

  20 "When you see being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
  25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

  I freely admit that I am not the smartest person in the world, and correct me if I am wrong, I very well may be , or I am miss understanding something. Why do we start counting the gentile times at 607 B.C, when they would not have started until 70 A.D?
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  AlanF

  Because Watchtower leaders have decreed it so.

  AlanF
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  cyberguy

  The "Gentile Times," evidently, ended in 70 C.E. (A.D.), not 1914! It's an interesting study to read the Society's explanation of Luke 21:20-24, because they interpret the "Jerusalem" of vs.20 differently from the "Jerusalem" of vs. 24! This presents a major problem, since the context shows that they are the same "Jerusalem." They say that one represents "Natural-Israel," whereas the latter represents "Spiritual-Israel." This presents another problem because it says that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." This implies that "Spiritual-Israel" would no longer be persecuted after the end of the "Gentile times." However, the Society also says that "anointed" ones have been persecuted since 1914; this is a flagrant contradiction!

  Edited by - cyberguy on 29 January 2003 13:5:53
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  peacefulpete

  The author writing after 70CE was imagining the tragic events f that decade would escallate until God would be moved to intervene in behalf of his chosen ones. This was why Christian writers often expressed conviction (in the form of psueonymous prophecy) that the end was imminent. This period of oppression, the gentile times, was neither prophetic nor a cryptic reference to ancient political turns. In context it simply refers to the time in which the author was living.
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  artful

  Welcome to the board l3gi0n!

  This is a very good question. First of all I don't buy into the whole "Gentile Times" chronology philosophy, but even if I did, as you point out, Jesus was very clearly stating that the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles, (aka "Gentile times") was to begin after Jerusalem's destruction (70CE). I guess if we are to buy into the WTS chronology theory, we should be looking for the "invisible return" of the Lord in and around 2590 AD! Hey, maybe this will be the next big "new light" prophecy! It would certainly buy the WTS some more time!!!

  Thanks for bringing this up. This teaching makes no sense on so many levels!

  Cheers
  Artful
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  l3gi0n

  Thanks for you comments, I had come to the conclusion that the gentile times may have in-fact started when was overthrown by , by using Ezekiel 21:25-27

  Ezekiel 21 (AMP)
  25 And you, O dishonored and wicked one [Zedekiah], the prince of Israel, whose day will come at the time of your final reckoning and punishment,
  26 Thus says the Lord God: Remove the [high priest's] miter or headband and take off the [king's] crown; things shall not remain as they have been; the low is to be exalted and the high is to be brought low.
  27 I will overthrow, overthrow, overthrow it; this also shall be no more until He comes Whose right it is [to reign in judgment and in righteousness], and I will give it to Him

  Luke 1:31-33 brings out that Jesus is the rightful hare to the Davidic kingdom.

  Luke 1 (NIV)
  31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

  So with this I can see where my Jw thinking pays off, Everything makes since, well sort of I still dont get how the 7 times are tied into it,

  However when looking at Luke 21 24 again, I see something different. Look closely

  Luke 21 (NASB)
  20 "But when you see surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
  21 "Then those who are in must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
  22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
  23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
  24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

  Verses, 22 and 24 both have something I managed to over look. Verse 22 states that All things which are written will be fulfilled. If it were yet to be fulfilled, that would indicate that the prophecy had not been fulfilled as of the time of Jesus speaking. If Jesus was living in the gentile times, the things that were written, would already be fulfilled.The second thing I failed to notice was in 24, Jesus is still speaking of an event that is in the future, one that has yet to happen. He does not say they fell by the edge of the sword, and were led captive into all the nation; (Babylon) and Jerusalem was to be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled

  That would Now leave me under the impression, that The gentile times did not in fact start until 70 CE, and would end at the second commeing of christ.
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  onacruse

  Welcome, l3gi0n!

  For me, the "times of the nations" beginning in 70 and running on for an indeterminate period of time makes a whole lot more sense, and jives better with the context of Jesus' words. And, realizing that the "2520 years" is totally speculation clears the way. No convoluted calculations and twisted interpretations; no need to ignore the facts of history just to find a date that "works" to fit such a useless eschatology.

  Craig