Why I'm here: Non-JW seeking advice

by bebu 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • bebu
    bebu

    As I've mentioned in an earlier post, I am not a JW. My dear neighbor is. We get along so great, I was surprised when I learned that dubs were NOT supposed to have "worldly" friends.

    This relationship kind of started by accident. We saw each other briefly a few times over the first years we lived here, but one day when I happened to chat just a little bit with her, I noticed she was NOT looking well. When I asked if she was truly alright... she just collapsed into tears. Troubles all around, mostly in marriage with a very abusive husband. (I can't give details, because I am learning that lurkers might even jeopardize this friendship!) The elders are failing her in regards to her husband. She is so frustrated with them. But she keeps hope in the org.

    Over the past couple of years, we've hardly talked about religion. I didn't bat an eye when she first told me she was a witness --but only since I'd somehow had a clue about it earlier. More recently we've had some interesting discussions about doctrine, but I have tried to avoid that, at least for the beginning. What little I have discussed was asking her to give some supporting resources for the 607 BC date for the destruction of the temple. No word back about this yet....! Oh, and also I asked her some questions about how she felt about disfellowshiping, just so I could understand how she felt. (Wow, have I learned a lot about it from this board...) She felt certain that it was right to do, and especially since whoever got baptised KNEW that there would be a consequence like this... (which, come to think of it, since she was baptised well before 1980, she herself did not realize that this was a consequence she could bring upon herself.)

    She recently told me that she had been waiting for ME to bring up religion. I was surprised to hear her say that, since JWs pounce on anyone (seems). But what I suspect is that she hopes she has found a REAL friend, and there's no strings attached here, and she doesn't want to rush into making me "reject" her or otherwise put a damper on our friendship. Of course, there isn't a disfellowshiping to be feared from me--but perhaps she might get threatened with it over having too close of a relationship! I don't know. She doesn't have to leave the dubs to be my friend.

    She has several friends in her church, but I am almost certain that I am her best friend, since after a very bizarre turn of events landed her in jail a couple years ago, my husband and I were the only ones who bailed her out. And I am NOT bragging here, actually--she is such a enjoyable person, I invite her over often for coffee or lunch or dinner with my family (she has no kids). She has met almost all my relatives, and they love her, too. She's as old as my mom, and we are almost like sisters. Our prayer group at church know her by name, as we pray for her and her situation from time to time, and all look forward to meeting her there some day. She's got blinders the size of barns, but she's got a heart of gold. She takes anti-depressants, which I've just learned is not uncommon for JWs.

    Now, I've talked with JWs before (even went thru their little book study thing 'way back in 1980's); I've spent some good (and some useless) hours talking with Mormons who come to my door. (Hey, if you come to my door, you have just given me permission to share with YOU. And I have done a lot of research for these doorknockers.) But this woman is truly my friend. She genuinely desires to serve God, I believe, and this is why we get along so well in spite of obvious differences. There are differences between these situations. If I am right, it will be a matter of time before she has a crisis of conscience.

    I want to do all I can to help get free. It has been incredibly helpful for me to come to understand JW experiences, trials, fears, and other odds and ends (really ODD odds and ends, I might add!), so that I can recognize what she might be dealing with, and how I can be prepared to help her better at certain points. I have appreciated reading your thoughts and ideas very much.

    Now here is my question to you folks who have nothing better to do than live online and read this.. If you could give advice about what a non-JW should do (realizing I'm not her relative), what would you say? Or, think about yourself, during the time you were an active JW. What attitudes, actions, or words do you think made the biggest difference to you, from non-JWs? Was it arguments? Was it something else? What acts of kindness seemed the most important to you? What should be absolutely avoided, if possible?

    Here's an example. At one very difficult point last year, where there was no simple solution, I urged her to really pray about a matter, really asking direction from God. Now, lately reading here how elders just used a mantra of "more service, more prayer" as a bandaid fix for tough situations, I wonder if I just sounded like a broken record she's heard before. (I still think my advice for this instance was proper, and not a parroted line. But now I see how this may have triggered guilt for her.)

    As for me, I really think demonstrating genuine love is most important.. I was a nominal Christian, until I met a guy in college who was the nicest, kindest person I'd ever met (he was married, and faithful to his wife--I was JUST a friend!). He was the most authentic Christian I'd ever met in my lfie. Was unashamed of Christ; and didn't give me a funny look because of my denomination (Catholic). Absolutely encouraged me simply to do the thing Christ would do. Made me feel able to speak honestly. After 4 months of working with this guy, I ended up prying out of him where he was going to fellowship! I'm not Catholic anymore due to some doctrinal disagreements, but I'm not anti-Catholic as I've met some pretty impressive Catholics since. The verse I can meditate on forever is, "Love Never Fails." ('Bernie' is still a walking saint._

    ...So again: What kind of actions/words/intervention do recommend for an outsider to help a JW friend? How would you answer, "If only somebody had...." (Or, "If only somebody hadn't..."?)

    Because, I am somebody, and if you can please help me out, I'll try to help her "out" through your best input.

    Thanks so much in advance.

    bebu

  • blackout
    blackout

    I am probly not going to be much help, but when I was a JW nothing a 'worldly' person could say would influence me, it was more the things I saw wrong over time that helped me out.

    However you may be able to ask questions like, ' I heard that the watchtower, bible and tract society was a Non-Government member of the United Nations, does this sound right to you?

    Then next time you speak show her some evidence you have of this. That may work depending on her personality type. I also strongly believe that by just being the best friend you can be and showing her that not all worldly people are bad and not all good people become witnesses this can help a lot.

    I dont know, its so hard.

  • Vivamus
    Vivamus
    Now here is my question to you folks who have nothing better to do than live online and read this

    LOL, I guess that does apply to me today....

    Well, first of all, you sound like a wonderful friend. In all honesty, when I was a JW, I hardly ever talked about the religion with my worldly friends, but I did do fun things with them, dinners, parties, etc. I didn't really confide in them, only after my disfellowshipment did I really confide in them and our friendship strengthened.

    I did have one friend, from childhood on, who tried to pry me out of the witnesses [I joined when I was 17], that totally backfired tho, and our friendship cooled down while I was a witness. Again, after my DF, my friendship with him got real good again.

    So, my advise would be, just keep doing what you are doing, be her friend, and if she wants to talk religion, she can bring it up. As witnesses, you get told over and over again that worldy people aren't real good people. So by being her friend, you are disproving that to her. But should you start trying to get her out, by drowning her in information that proves the JW wrong, you might possible drive her away.

    Take care.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    I'd say that the fact that your friend avoided the subject of religion and seems to want you to be a real friend as opposed to the false friendships that are part and parcel of JW life speaks volumes. I think that it would be best not to make too big an issue of doctrines, history, etc. Only as they come up, and be nice!

    By using endless repetition, The Watchtower indoctrinates a unique and all-encompassing world-view into the minds of JW's. Information that contradicts this world-view creates cognitive dissonance, which is very painful for people who have such a totalistic mindset.

    Rome wasn't built in a day, nor did it come down in a day. For most ex-JW's, the process of leaving often took months or even years.

    Tread lightly is the best advice I can give. When I was a newbie JW, I took a job at a company where I worked alongside a man who was a rabid fundamentalist. When he found out I was a JW, he started reading me the riot act. I quit my job to get away from him, and in many ways it solidified my Watchtower-trained notion that JW's were persecuted and misunderstood, further evidence that we were "the true religion".

  • calamityjane
    calamityjane

    I agree with Viv. you sound like a wonderful friend, just keep doing what your doing.

    Maybe one day she'll come around knowing that she has a friend like you that she can turn to.

    Right now, she's trapped in an abusive marriage and if she were to leave, she would definitely be shunned and that is something scary for jw's because they feel lost and feel like theres no where to go.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Bebu,

    You wrote:

    As for me, I really think demonstrating genuine love is most important..

    Of all the things that you could do, this will touch her deepest.

    JamesT

  • bebu
    bebu

    Thanks all, for the excellent advice.

    I think the next topic that comes up will definitely be the UN scandal, with copies of things to back it up.

    Rome wasn't built in a day... yes. I've realized that there was NOT going to be a quick way to loosen her from the WT jaws. She's been in for 30+ years, and probably has heard PLENTY of theological arguments, which is why I've pretty much avoided this area.

    I'm in this for the long haul! She will always be my friend.

    Thanks again, folks,

    bebu

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Nice to make your acquaintance, Bebu. I am a never-JW who spends a lot of time with an active JW. I can tell you that your instincts are dead-on, and keep doing what you are doing. The biggest thing I have learned in the last few years is that progress is painfully slow. The power of the society over its members can not be overestimated. Since they specialize in mental and emotional manipulation to bully members in to staying, you must be the opposite. Never use ultimatums or guilt to try to push your friend in one direction or another. Wherever possible, reaffirm that her love for God is genuine, and that she can make good decisions for her life on her own.

    If you could give advice about what a non-JW should do (realizing I'm not her relative), what would you say?

    What attitudes, actions, or words do you think made the biggest difference to you, from non-JWs?

    If my honey finishes an argument with nevermind, I count it as a “direct hit”. One question that worked was, “If a prophet says something is going to happen and it doesn’t, does that make him a false prophet?” With that said, steady faithful love reaps more in the long run.

    Was it arguments?

    I think asking “innocent” questions works well. If her answer sounds dumb, say “That’s just dumb.” Though she may deny your answer, sometimes the plain truth spoken plainly cuts deep. Some of the plain dumb doctrines that just cannot hold up to scrutiny include,

    1. The Faithful and Discreet Slave.
    2. Two classes of Christians - anointed and “other sheep”. Ask, for instance, which promises of Jesus your friend can claim...or are those promises just for the anointed? If so, why did Jesus and Peter and Paul and John write so many epistles for such a small group? Exactly how much of the bible is left for the “other sheep”, then?
    3. Christmas (pagan origin), Valentine’s Day (pagan origin), Easter (pagan origin), Thanksgiving (secular origin), Birthdays (Herod chopped John the Baptist’s head off) BAAAAAD. Wedding Rings (pagan origin) OK.
    4. Blood transfusions (eating blood) BAD. Bloody steak (eating blood) OK.

    Was it something else?

    I hear sometimes it is a sudden jolt; former friends turn ugly when a JW goes through a rough patch, a JW parent faces losing a child due to refusal of blood, rampant gossip at the hall, etc. etc. For your friend, the ending of her marriage may be the final straw. She will be very lonely once the organization starts shunning her. Your friendship will be very important then. Be available, be ready when she needs you.

    What acts of kindness seemed the most important to you?

    My honey responds very well to cookies. Food of any kind works well. Hugs. Hugs are good. The WTS boasts that they show love amongst themselves, but such “love” is highly conditional. As soon as someone appears “weak”, they become pariahs. The unconditional love that Christ taught us ordinary Christians is in very short supply at the KH, and will be very attractive to your JW friend.

    What should be absolutely avoided, if possible?

    The Trinity. What happens when you die. Such topics can be argued endlessly without resolution, because it cannot be proven based on outside evidence. i.e. “You die first, then come back, and tell me what it is like.”

    Don’t try and get your friend in to church. Church is more eeevylll than the Adult section of your local Video store. If your prayer group goes for coffee, though, she might be open to that.

    I totally agree with this statement,

    I also strongly believe that by just being the best friend you can be and showing her that not all worldly people are bad and not all good people become witnesses this can help a lot.

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