Second Temple Judaism's Iranian Connections - something to think about

by fulltimestudent 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    The JW's (and many other Christians) believe that their religious beliefs are derived from YHWH who personally taught men of old the truth.

    This view is not supported by evidence, on the contrary, when we consider the religious beliefs of neighbouring peoples, we can find evidence that the Jewish elite were influenced by the religious beliefs of their surrounding neighbours.

    This short video purports to demonstrate a connection between Jewish thinking at the start of second temple Judaism and the Iranians who practised Zoroastrianism.

    I (at this time) find the suggestion that the Jews conflated their YHWH with the Zoroastrian divinity somewhat difficult, but its worth thinking about.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGLGcnJz7_8&t=269s

  • prologos
    prologos

    yeah, with the tent in the wilderness, at least wt could attach meaning to all the features, the curtain,-- . with the temples, the pillars?

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    And if you move on into the Christian Era you'll find that most of what is taught in the New Testament comes from Egypt. Even part of the Old has Egyptian influences. Curcumsision, baptisms, ark of the covenant, etc.

    In the New Testament ideas like life after death in a paradise or heaven. Having a spirit. Judgment, heart condition, second death, lake of fire, and more all come from the much earlier Egyptian religion.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    I don't know why such links are not explored more - it would enrich us to do so. coastal areas throughout the Mediterranean linked people and their traditions because of trade and ease of access from the sea

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    oops double post.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    It is quite odd for me as a Jewish man to see that this is any type of news to people.

    Jews recognize that much of the ritual and even style of our Hebrew worship was shaped by the ancient world we lived in. Our worship style has the earmarks of the ancient Mesopotamian world we were part of, and it extends far back further than the Second Temple era. The religious connections predate our time in Egypt, and festivals like Passover may have connections to the world Abraham came from with alterations to these Mesopotamian feasts made to give them new meaning in our Jewish context as we ourselves were shaped by history.

    But prior to the Shoah, antisemitism and anti-Judaism sentiment rose to the point that Gentile people got most of their "firsthand" information about the Jews and our history from Christians. The Church had made the Hebrew Bible it's own document, and in so doing often reshaped its interpretation to fit its needs, often claiming that its views had merely been transferred from Judaism to Christian exegetes.

    After the Shoah there has been a greater emphasis on dialogue with the Jewish people by Christianity, and the discovery of the Qumran scrolls did much to lift the "exclusive scoop" Christians claimed of the Bible back to the peoples who were responsible for its foundations.

    Add to this that about the same time the Roman Catholic Church gave a nod to critical analysis of Scripture and ever so slowly the rest of the world began to see that the Jews draw a line to their neighbors more than the heavens when it comes to these matters.

    The Jewish explanation of these facets is still not fully believed by many, and there is even a pseudo-religious movement that is intent to change the Mesopotamian connection into one that begins with Egyptian religion, even though the critical analysis agrees with Jewish history and it's claim to have adopted things from its more immediate neighbors (not that there is no connection between Egyptian and Mesopotamian religion, as a matter of fact).

    In the end, if you have been exposed only to the Jehovah's Witnesses and their literalist approaches, you might still be surprised by information like this. It's very, very old news to Jews. People often think we don't know these things because in the past Christians have drawn their own ideas over these matters and presented them as Jewish history, but you are late to the party if you think it's news. Even as early as the 1950s, the Catholic Church disavowed such previous views and currently its own study Bibles identify the same links regarding Jewish religion to its Mesopotamian neighbors.

    The shadows of the Watchtower are very dark and have robbed too many of seeing the world as it truly is.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    P.S.: The critical analysis and Jewish history marks a path a bit different from the video. As I mentioned the connections made in the most critical of approaches in Judaism are that the monotheistic concept came from Sinai/Moab sometime after the Hyskos were ousted from power in Egypt.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    david_jay

    In the end, if you have been exposed only to the Jehovah's Witnesses and their literalist approaches, you might still be surprised by information like this. It's very, very old news to Jews. People often think we don't know these things because in the past Christians have drawn their own ideas over these matters and presented them as Jewish history, but you are late to the party if you think it's news

    well yes it is surprising but on the other hand Jehovah's witnesses do not want to live in a relativistic world and their reconstruction of history from the Bible gives them a firm footing in our postmodern world. How do jews manage with postmodernism and its relativity?

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Ruby456,

    It depends on the Jew, I suppose. Since the culture and religion are not based upon the Scriptures (the Scriptures are a product and not the basis of foundation of our beliefs and society), and since those Jews who are literalist often also believe that the Torah predates the Exodus, Moses, even Abraham and the foundation of the world, the religious aspect of Judaism is really a facet of that relativism. Judaism is not an exercise in being in static form like Christianity, for example, outside of some forms of Orthodoxy.

    In fact, the latest and fastest growing movement among Jews since the end of the 20th century is the post-denominational, post-rabbinical movement. To a degree one might say this demonstrates very much its ability to bend with the times.

    Of course there are also the humanitarian (secularist) Jews, and they might be said to be in the forefront of things along with the religious Reform Jews.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    These are all signs, IMO, of a considerable degree of foresight on the part of the early Hebrew and Jewish thinkers...

    ...they knew times would change, and that therefore their religion would have change with them, and that that was okay.

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