Who are Jesus" other sheep?

by Vanderhoven7 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Vanderhoven7

  WATCHTOWER OTHER SHEEP

  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

  The words “other sheep” on the lips of Jesus in John 10:16 are not defined for us...so admittedly there is a certain amount of ambiguity which both Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons capitalize on. Now there is a reason for the ambiguity, which I won't go into now. But, letting scripture interpret scripture, we remember Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....not to the Gentiles. It was actually some time after Pentecost that the disciples came to realize that Jesus also laid down His life for the Gentile nations and that the gospel was intended for them as well as the Jews; that they both would be one body in Christ as Paul brings out in Eph 2:16 and they would share one hope Eph 4:4 of their calling.

  That's the Bible interpreting the Bible. But the WTS feels it has the authority over the Bible to add to or impregnate this passage with all kinds of extra-biblical teaching: According to the WTS Jesus was intending in Jn 10:16 to communicate much more information. To Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus was actually saying here:

  And other sheep have I, which are not of this fold: no, because:

  1. They will only begin being called early on in the 20th century...not before.

  2. They will not be saints of God,

  3. They will not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

  4. My righteousness will not be imputed to them.

  5. They will not be justified to life until the 1000 years are completed.

  6. They will not merit being raised in the first resurrection

  7. I will not be their personal mediator;

  8. They will not be part of my New Covenant arrangement.

  9. They will not be entitled to partake of the emblems of my death.

  10. They will not have a heavenly hope

  11. They will be not Spirit Begotten Son's of God.

  12. They will need to be affiliated with the Watchtower Society to be saved from ultimate destruction at Armageddon.

  This might be what this verse means to Jehovah's Witnesses.... But is two class Christianity what the Bible teaches?
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  TxNVSue2023

  I've never clearly understood the distinction between the 144K & other sheep other than the 2 different final destinations ( heaven/earth).

  That and only 144K could partake in memorial. Mainly because as a rank & file you're attention is on other things- raising a family, living a clean Christian life, preaching etc.
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  aqwsed12345

  " I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." (John 10:16:)

  This saying interrupts the reflection on relationships, placed within the shepherd/sheep imagery, to refer to the "other sheep" who will also hear Jesus' voice. Elsewhere in the Gospel, such interruptions pertain to future generations of believers (e.g., 17:20; 20:29). It's possible to connect this saying with the Gentiles, "the Greeks," who are mentioned twice (7:35; 12:20-22). The sheep previously discussed were the few faithful Jews Jesus directly referred to, as he knows all his sheep, and his infinite love embraces each one. He now clearly mentions those faithful who will be brought into the Christian Church from paganism by his apostles and their successors in his name. They, too, will follow his lead so that eventually all distinction between Jews and Gentiles will disappear, leaving just one Church under one head. The prophets often foretold the general conversion of the Gentiles. See Ps. 88; Is. 2:1 and following; 49; 51; 60. This verse, in connection with the next, fills in the thought: I will lay down my life for these sheep as well.

  The "other sheep" are the Gentiles, who were outside God's chosen people's fold but whom Christ was destined by God to bring into his fold as well (Ps. 72:8 and following; Is. 2:2 and following; 60). There will be one fold, one shepherd. This does not mean that eventually every person, nation, and individual will convert, but that the dividing wall between the chosen people and the pagans will fall, and all nations will merge into the church, God's chosen people. According to some Scriptures, as the end of the world approaches, great apostasies and unprecedented outbreaks of evil will occur during the time of the Antichrist (Matt. 24; 2 Thess. 2:3 and following).

  Therefore, Jesus here announces a hopeful future for all nations. Even when in conflict with his own people, he sees and shows a future where not only his people but also nations, and not just the nations' sons but also his people's members, will find each other and be united with him. Jesus speaks of the evangelistic work among the nations and its hopeful completion and fulfillment, the fulfillment of prophecies (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6; 58:8), in an extremely brief, concise manner but showing a vast perspective. His work, which according to his mission was to be done among the people of Israel (Mt 10:5–6; 15:24), continues among the nations (Mk 16:15; Mt 28:19) and will be successful (Mt 8:11; Lk 13:28). Under the headship of Jesus Christ, the various races of all the nations in the world will eventually unite. It becomes clear that – although salvation comes from Israel – the Savior belongs not only to Israel but to all peoples. Jesus is the redeemer of the world (Jn 4:42; Ezek 37:22–24; 34:23; Hos 1:11; Mic 2:12; Eph 2:14–22; 4:4–6; Jn 17:11,21–23).

  It can be easily determined that the "other sheep" are not the supposed "non-anointed" earthly "Jonadab class" of the Watchtower denomination, but rather Christ's sheep of non-Israelite origin.

  "My mission is only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

  The "other sheep" (John 10:16) are not members of some secondary class of salvation but are the sheep not of Israel's fold ("not of this sheep pen"), whom Christ leads to the same place ("I must bring them also"), and with whom there will be "one flock," not a group eternally separated from the first. Jesus never spoke of any 144,000 in the Gospels, on the contrary: John 14:2. In JW theology, the "earthly class" (the Jonadabites) is from the same "sheep pen" as the alleged "anointed class": neither is of a different origin in terms of descent, and there will not be "one flock" of two salvation classes, as they will forever be separated. Revelation 21-22 clearly speaks only of "the righteous" who can enter the heavenly Jerusalem descending to the (new) earth, and the sinners who cannot - thus, within "the righteous," there are not two classes.

  Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen..." (John 10:14). In other words,

  1. there are sheep that are from this sheep pen,
  2. but there are also sheep that are not from this sheep pen, but from another.

  This dual-origin group of sheep became one flock. In Jesus' time, this flock was small, hence Jesus calls this flock initiative a small flock. There's no other way to understand it. Further, "And I heard the number of the sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel" (Revelation 7:4). Note the use of the phrase "from among"! If I select beautiful red apples from a basket of apples, then the number of selected (sealed) apples is less than what was originally in the basket. Even a second grader can understand this. Therefore, if God seals 144,000 "from every tribe of the sons of Israel," then this 144,000 will be less than the total number of members "from every tribe of the sons of Israel." However, if "from every tribe of the sons of Israel" is to be understood as spiritual Israelites, then indeed the spiritual Israelites are more than 144,000. So, this doesn't fit, as the JWs call the 144,000 spiritual Israel. On the other hand, if in this context "from every tribe of the sons of Israel" refers to spiritual Israelites, then why are the specific tribes' names listed, such as Judah, Reuben, Gad, etc.? What do these specific names symbolize? Do the spiritual Israelites divide into such groups? It would be interesting to consider further that if the so-called "rightous" divide into two groups, why couldn't the "wicked ones" also divide into two groups?
  
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  BoogerMan

  At John 10:16 Jesus said, “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

  The Scriptures identify these 'other sheep' - beyond all reasonable doubt.

  Jesus had previously given his disciples the order, “Do not go off into the road of the nations, (Gentiles) and do not enter into a Samaritan city; but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5,6)

  “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matt. 15:24)

  On both of these occasions, Jesus identifies the only group of people to whom he was to preach - the Jews!

  This fulfilled Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 9:25-27) about the old covenant being kept operative for the Jews for 42 months after Jesus' death.

  Only after that time period had elapsed would the Gentiles be called in.

  Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Gentiles) (Rom. 1:16)

  He repeated this truth - "for the Jew first and also for the Greek." (Rom. 2:10)

  The Insight Book very concisely summarises the identity of the 'other sheep': "Jesus’ sacrificial death on the torture stake also provided the basis for canceling the Mosaic Law, which divided the Jews from the non-Jews. Therefore, upon becoming Christians, both peoples could be at peace with God and with one another. The apostle Paul wrote: “[Jesus] is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake". (it-2 p. 592 Peace)

  Therefore, Jesus' 'other sheep' (non-Jews) would unite with the Jews as one flock, under one shepherd. (John 10:16)
  

  By stating that they would become "one flock, one shepherd," Jesus showed there would be no distinctions or classes amongst his sheep. He said, "All you are brothers". (Matt. 23:8)

  The true context of Jesus' words at John 10:16 become abundantly clear by reading from John 9:40.

  Jesus was speaking with the Jews and Pharisees who were following him around.

  He was not having a personal chat with his alleged “little flock" of apostles/disciples.

  From that verse onwards, Jesus is speaking of all those who could become his sheep, starting with 'this fold', (the Jews) the people to whom he was addressing.

  The apostle Paul's words to the Ephesian congregation expands on the details of Jesus' “one flock”:
  

  (Ephesians 4:4, 5) One body (Christians) there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

  There wouldn't be two hopes (heaven & earth) and there wouldn't be two different baptisms.

  At their water baptism, all Christians would figuratively “die” to their former sinful ways and spirit, and henceforth, be impelled by God's Holy spirit. (Romans 6:2,4,6,7,8,10, & 11)

  (John 3:5) Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  Very clear Boogerman!
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  Vanderhoven7

  @bbqbob

  The Bible teaches that all Christians are born-again of and indwelt by the Spirit and as such are justified sons of God bound for glory.
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  Pronger1

  Besides those addressing that the other sheep are the Gentiles.. who are the 144,000?

  In Revelation there is a motif of John hearing and then looking. Revelation 5, John is told to see the Lion of Judah, but when he looks, what he sees is the slaughtered lamb.

  Both the Lion of Judah and the slaughtered lamb are Jesus. But the Jewish expectation of the Messiah leading to the overthrowing of empires that ruled them was fulfilled in an unexpected way. The Messiah’s victory was through self sacrifice.

  Revelation 7, hears the number of 144,000 out of every tribe of Israel. The number being symbolic of completeness, yet when he turns and looks he sees a great multitude that he cannot count out of every nation and tribe.

  That complete number of the 144,000 out of Israel is fulfilled unexpectedly as the the great multitude out of every nation. The 144,000 is the great multitude.

  The concept of two classes of Christian does not exist in the Bible.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Excellent Pronger1! The hearing and then seeing sequence is a literary devise that John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images.

  144,000 is symbolic of the church.