Does god punish children for their parents sins?

by moomanchu 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • moomanchu
    moomanchu

    Ezekiel 18: 1-4 , “The word of the Lord came to me: ‘What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: “The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.’”

    Exodus 20:5–6 “For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

    So, does god hold children responsible for their parents’ sins?

    If no, then obviously why are we sufferig for Adam and Eve’s sin ?

    Jehovah's original punishment set out was (according to Eve) `You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'

    After the sin Jehovah added the punishments of banishment from the garden, cursed ground, painful toil, and painful childbirth and alienation to Adam for Eve.

    All these punishments were for Adam and Eve. What is funny to me is these punishments were added after the sin was committed. Imagine running a red light and the judge says I know the law says it's a $250.00 fine but I'm adding 2 years in prison and I'm taking your kids away.

    Original sin imputed to us is a shaky and strange foundation that the whole bible is built on.

  • liam
    liam

    I can't even imagine a BEING so powerful that he created not only our solar system, but also our Milky Way galaxy, which is estimated to contain at least 100 billion solar systems, with many of them hosting planets just like ours. Recent studies suggest there could be as many as 300 million habitable exoplanets within these systems.

    But that's not all, He also created the entire freaking Universe, with an estimated 100 billion to 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe, with some estimates suggesting there could be as many as 2 trillion galaxies when considering the entire universe. ............with each galaxy having 100 billion solar systems like ours.

    Such a BEING would not be interested in spending his time with a bunch of ants, and concerned with one of those ants committing fornication with another ant or masturbating while painting an image of a Red ant in his mind. No Supreme Being would be up an arms, mad as hell for an ant for doing such things.

    The concept of sin is "Man Made"

    An Omniscient, Omnipotent God doesn't give a rat's ass what human-Ants do.

    If He Did, I guarantee He would step in and do something about it.

    I'm sure such a Being has other more pressing matters to attend to than to plan an Armageddon to destroy all the Only Fans Models on the internet.


  • careful
    careful

    What people want to believe themselves (or what they want to believe the scriptures say) and then what the scriptures themselves do say are usually two different things. That said, from a purely historical perspective, there does seem to be an evolution of thought within the history of the Hebrew Bible itself.

    For example, acc. to the Mosaic Law (in a dramatic date perspective, prior to David) David should have taken vengeance sometimes but did not. Indeed, he should have been stoned himself for arranging Uriah's death, but he was not. So the contradiction between Ex. 20 and Deut. 18 that you point out can be easily conceived of—again from a purely historical perspective—as simply an evolution of religious thinking within the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish faith, that is, "our ancestors used to believe that our God Jehovah takes vengeance for the sins of fathers upon sons. But we Jews [by the date of Ezekiel] now know that isn't how God operates. Each person is individually responsible for his/her own actions."

    That's a nice tidy explanation, but then we encounter in the NT, which is supposed to be more loving and tolerant than the OT, Matthew's report that the Jews responsible for wanting Jesus dead exclaim, "Let his blood come upon us and our children" (27:25), clearly a return to the spirit of Ex. 20.

    Go figure! If we want any sort of crystal clear theology rooted the Bible, we're dreaming. It's generally pretty murky stuff, full of contradictions or at least what look like such on the surface. Enter the theologians.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    There are several takes on this, as you've just noted from the various posts above.

    One of the reasons is that the term "God" lacks a clear, coherent definition when one asks this question. Are we talking about Jesus, as Christians define God? Are we still talking about "Jehovah God," as the Watchtower defines God? Are we speaking about the Jewish definition of God (and then which one, something like Orthodoxy or more like Spinoza's or Modeca Kaplan's non-personal take)? Are we talking about Allah of the Islamic religion? Or are we speaking about something else entirely?

    While not acknowledged by Watchtower theology, the Hebrew Bible does have an evolutionary development of YHWH similar to a character development in a modern novel. The God of Abraham is not the same "God" in the Torah as He is in the Prophets or after the Babylonian Exile. This is recognized even in the Talmud. The reason is that the Jews developed their theology about God via revelation, whether that revelation was developed by the hands of man or you believe it was divine (or a combination of the two).

    Regardless, the take is always the same: YHWH is discovered (or discovers the Hebrew people), and is one God among many that the Jews worship. The Jews lose the northern part of their territory to foreigners and then end up having their king and capital exiled into the land of Babylon.

    They search for a reason for why this is so. Their religious priests tell them it is because they should have been worshiping YHWH and only YHWH instead of the pantheon of deities that they had been serving. So they reconstruct their religious and cultural observances into a liturgy praising YHWH, claiming that they had sinned against Him and must repent in hope that they would be released from exile and returned to their land.

    And they were. This reconstruction seemed to work--for a while. This new theology, namely that God sends down punishment upon people and nations for the sins they and their ancestors commit seemed to be true, until the Hasmonean dynasty of 100 years fell.

    And after that the Second Temple fell. And after that the Bar Kokhba Revolt was a disaster. And then there was the Diaspora, and the Crusades and pogroms and the Spanish and Mexican Inquisitions, and finally the Holocaust.

    It was at the Holocaust that the Jews finally abandoned this theology. God does not punish any nation or children for the sins of their fathers. It was not merely the evils visited on the Jews that made the Jewish people consider this. When the Jews were liberated from the camps after WWII those that lost the war were faced with even worse terrors. Consider the horrors of the two nuclear weapons dropped on Japan to end the war. Did God do this to save the Jews? The answer was that the Jewish theology that YHWH punishes his children was flawed from the very beginning.

    While I cannot answer why some Christians not only still hold onto to these views and even cherish them like Jehovah's Witnesses do, you sometimes have to move pass the texts you revere as holy in order to cherish them as holy, otherwise you do a disservice to them and others. Our desire to define an Ineffable God is impossible. We cannot define that which cannot be defined. Moses cannot give God a name. God is the one who names Moses.

  • KerryKing
    KerryKing

    I think I could listen to you for hours Kaleb! Do you have a YouTube channel or similar?

    I would dearly love to learn more about the Jewish history from a Jewish viewpoint as you seem to do so well.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    KerryKing,

    Thanks for the comments.

    I am retiring beginning in February so I am considering doing something to help the JW community. I am just trying to consider which approach would work best. I don't know for sure. I will keep you posted

  • moomanchu
    moomanchu

    Interesting comments, some definitely more knowledgeable than me of Jewish traditions and customs.

    I just find it fascinating that Jehovah never said in Genesis he would punish Adam and Eve's children. He only pronounced punishment on them. No normal government or sane man would punish the children of ancestors who broke laws. Why would God do it?

    The whole thing stinks.🤔 😵

  • blondie
    blondie

    I wondered about that, researched using WT publications, and was still confused. Asked an elder privately and he said that Exodus in context means the whole nation of Israel, while Ezekiel means individual responsibility. (what?!) And the Question from Readers ends with this statement: "As Creator and Life-Giver, Jehovah has every right to determine what punishment is just and appropriate. The above instances show that children or descendants may feel the ill effects of their ancestors’ sin. However, Jehovah “hears the outcry of the afflicted ones,” and individuals who earnestly turn to him may receive his favor and even some measure of relief.​" (Now isn't that a dance around) WT 3/15/29 p. 28-29,) (reporting not supporting) If you want you can look us this article made clickable on Watchtower Online Library.https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010210

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Christian (at least some forms of Christian) logic is that God, who can do no wrong, did the great injustice of killing an innocent to punish for the 'sins' of others. This one of the many reasons the Jews took offense.
  • moomanchu
    moomanchu

    Blondie

    That is a good link from jw.org. It proves the point that indeed Jehovah does punish children for the sins of the parents.

    I forgot about that story with Naaman. Condensed version of it: Gehazi commited fraud which then resulted in him and all his descendants getting leprosy. Basically everyone related to him got the death penalty because he committed fraud. Seems like reasonable and fair justice. not

    Jehovah should have allowed Adam and Eve to pay for their own sin with their own death as was stated. Why couldn't Jehovah allow the children to be born perfect? He is God he can do anything . After that make each individual pay for their own sin with death . This is the samething that is going to happen in the paradise anyway. All the BS over the last 6,000 years could have been avoided - entertainment.

    The older I get the more it all seems like BS. I look at my older JW relatives and think "how do you do it?"

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit