was Judas there?

by enoughisenough 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  enoughisenough

  From Luke 22:14

  So when the hour came, he reclined at the table along with the apostles.+ 15 And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you, I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.” 17 And accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves, 18 for I tell you, from now on, I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes.”+

  19 Also, he took a loaf,+ gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body,+ which is to be given in your behalf.+ Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”+ 20 Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant+ by virtue of my blood,+ which is to be poured out in your behalf.+

  21 “But look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.+ 22 For, indeed, the Son of man is going his way according to what has been determined;+ all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!”+ 23 So they began to discuss among themselves which one of them could really be about to do this.+ ////There was a scripture used ( didn't look it up ) where Jesus told Judas to go and do what he had to do. JWs use it to show Judas wasn't there partaking of the bread and wine at the Lord's evening meal? That however isn't how I read this account in Luke...
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  Anony Mous

  Depends on the Bible book you pick, Luke says yes, John says no. Matthew or Mark seem to say that he left right after he got handed the bread dipped in the wine.

  So in some stories he was there, in some he wasn’t. It’s just an inconsistency between the different stories and indicates the story was made up by each apostle with different goals, people fighting over control of a cult with different viewpoints.
  
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  ThomasMore

  The accounts do seem to lean in 2 different directions. WTC would love to write Judas out of the account, as if traitorous persons could not drink the wine and eat the unleavened bread. Does it really matter? Ray Franz, Ewart Chitti, Leo Greenleas, Rutherford and others partook and the sky did not fall. Shame on WTC for even making it an issue. It is just another distraction from the real issues that Christians must contend with.
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  enoughisenough

  I am thinking if I had ever read the accounts without the influence of the WT, I would have thought Judas still there. In John chapter 13:18 refers to the "one eating my bread has lifted his heel against me." ...the account doesn't really go on to state anything else about the passing of the bread and wine as others described it. Do you think there is any symbolism in "MY" bread...as in the bread being symbolic of Christ's body...or is do you think he was considering all the food there as his food? Verses 3 -5says the meal was going on and Jesus got up from the meal to wash their feet.
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  BluesBrother

  John 13 makes it clear that Judas left before the covenant was enacted. The others may not include that detail but that does not make them disagreeing . As far as I know John was there , at Jesus’ right hand , so he ought to know.
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  enoughisenough

  BluesBrother, I take your point...but John says nothing in that sequence about the passing of bread and wine...That seems like an important detail to leave out-considering he wrote about washing of feet.
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  Anony Mous

  The books of the Bible were written well past anyone present could have still been alive. It’s the gospel “according to” Mark/Matthew/Luke. Not written and definitely not final edit by them.

  By the point they were written down (~120CE), anyone around would have been dead at least 40-50 years. The cult of Christianity had split off from Judaism after the destruction of the temple and several claimed to be the true leaders. Various books were written and brought to bear, only some of those ended up being edited into the canonical (Catholic) books we know today.

  The Ethiopian and Orthodox and other now extinct churches and what eventually developed into Islam also used other books (some more/less mystical and gnostic than others) and interpretations. There is also reference to many lost books in all the writings, even Jesus and Paul refers to the lost books eg the book of Enoch.
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  fastJehu

  *** it-2 p. 130 Judas ***

  Last Night With Jesus. In spite of having turned against Christ, Judas continued to associate with him. He gathered with Jesus and the apostles on Nisan 14, 33 C.E., for the celebration of the Passover. While the Passover meal was in process Jesus ministered to the apostles, humbly washing their feet. Hypocritical Judas allowed Jesus to do that to him. But Jesus said, “Not all of you are clean.” (Joh 13:2-5, 11) He also stated that one of the apostles there at the table would betray him. Perhaps so as not to appear guilty, Judas asked if he was the one. As a further identification, Jesus gave Judas a morsel and told him to do quickly what he was doing.—Mt 26:21-25; Mr 14:18-21; Lu 22:21-23; Joh 13:21-30.

  Immediately Judas left the group. A comparison of Matthew 26:20-29 with John 13:21-30 indicates that he departed before Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal. Luke’s presentation of this incident evidently is not in strict chronological order, for Judas had definitely left by the time Christ commended the group for having stuck with him; that would not fit Judas, nor would he have been taken into the “covenant . . . for a kingdom.”—Lu 22:19-30.

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  (Luke 1:1-4) 1 Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

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  According to JW, the "fault" lies with Lukas, of course. And this, although Lukas was very exact and furthermore had to be this as a doctor.

  The anointing of the Spirit was not until Pentecost 33 even after this supper. Judas could very well have been present at the supper and because of his non-anointing then not a member of the 144000.

  And even if he was a member of the 144000, this right can be taken away from him again - at least that is what the JW teaches for the modern times.