'nother trinity question...

by chappy 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • chappy
    chappy

    Thanks to Cassi and onacruise for the info on John 1:1 earlier; ie: Need a Reference. I haven't discussed the trinity doctrine or any religious subject with my family (all witnesses) for quite a while. Personally, the doctrine is moot - much ado about nothing. Both positions can be biblically supported. It seems to me however that the witnesses misrepresent what trinitarians actually believe. I was always told that the trinity doctrine meant the belief that God and Christ were the same individual or entity. This is what I think the trinity doctrine means: God is not a person or entity, but something akin to a panel of 3 judges, lets say Tom, Dick and Harriet. The panel = God, Tom = the Father (chief judge), Dick = the Son, Harriet = the Holy spirit. The panel (God) IS the group. In my mind this clears up the confusion about Christ praying to Himself. He was praying to another member of the panel(God), in this case Tom (the Father).

    Does this sound just as confusing as what the witnesses say the trinity means or does it make sense and represent what most believe.

    later,

    chappy

  • Francois
    Francois

    How would you feel about modifying that story so that Dick the Son and Jesus the Carpenter are NOT the same entity? Makes the whole shebang much easier to understand don't it? Just think about all the paradoxes that simple little change does away with.

    I mean, I AM a son of God too, but that don't make me the second person of the trinity now does it? So why is it that everyone insists that Jesus the Christ was the second person of the Trinity? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

    Think about it. I mean really give it some thought and tell me what you think.

    francois

  • Mary
    Mary

    The trinity's never made any sense to me.......the nation of Israel believed in one God, Yahweh. They did not believe that He was a trinune God with two other members. So I guess I feel that, if God was One in the Old Testament, how does He suddenly become Three in the NT?

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Mary, it's true that the Jews were very monotheistic (at least as far as the kiriathshema {Deut 6:4} says). It's also true that they were theologically incompetent. After all, they had to be told time and time again, for almost 1000 years, that idols were not gods. And for all the divine revelations they received, and the hundreds of prophets that "explained" Yahweh to the Jews...nevertheless, after 1,500 years of all this, as a nation they still totally missed the point of their own Scriptures, received (as far as they thought) from the very hand of that Yahweh Himself.

    They were a whole lot more nationalistically concerned about being the am segullah (“treasure people”) and am nahallah (“heritage people”) of God, than they were interested in what God really was.

    Craig

    (PS: I don't mean this to be racist or inflammatory.)

  • Francois
    Francois

    Craig old boy, you talk like you're mespucha.

    Mary, I wonder if we aren't hung up on a problem brought on by our innocence of understanding regarding the meaning of some of the terms we hear every day but don't really know what they mean?

    You are of course correct about the fact that the Hebrews were monotheists. But damn, look at what a murdering low-life, sacrifice chasing, mote loving, primitive judge-accountant God they picked to be monotheistic WITH.

    And then we come to the Greek & Aramaic "New" Testament, and we hear about something called "divine" and "divinity" and also we begin hearing about the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost - Three Gods! What is that all about?

    You know, I've been investigating as much as possible about that concept "divine" and I've stumbled across a new understanding about what it means, and it is this: God is the source of all which is divine. God is characteristically and invariably divine, but all that which is divine is not necessarily God, though it will be co-ordinated with God and will tend towards some phase of unity with God. This unity, this unifying quality, is best comprehended by the children of God, you and me, as divinity. Now the first three beings of all creation were God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. All divine. And because they were all perfectly divine, they were and are in perfect unity and accord with each other. They are ONE. Just like when your spouse accepted your proposal of marriage, at that moment you two were ONE. Just like your best friend in the world when he/she says "let's go buy a case of beer" you and your best friend are ONE.

    In this way, the three persons of the trinity may be referred to as being ONE, because of the fact of their infinite and eternal harmony, love, and agreement one with the other. I believe it's so hard for us to conceive of this kind of harmony and love because we've never seen it on this planet. But there it is, a fairly simple explanation of the so-called "mystery" of the trinity. There's really no mystery if you know the definition of the words being used. And when you use the correct definition of the word divine, things start popping into place.

    And at no time during the explanation of the meaning of divinity has the name Jesus of Nazareth come up. That's another misapprehension: Jesus of Nazareth is not the second person of the trinity IMHO. If you will think of all the confusing scriptures about the second person of the trinity and at the same time remember that Jesus ain't Him, then things on that level start clearing up as well.

    And now I'm winded, tuckered out. So I'm gonna quit you'll be happy to hear. I hope you like my idea.

    francois

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Francois writes: "The first three beings of creation were God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. All divine.." Yet later: "Jesus of Nazareth is not the second person of the Trinity."

    If Jesus of Nazareth is not revealed in Scripture as God the Son, then who is He? And who is God the Son, one of the beings of creation that you mentioned above?

    Jesus of Nazareth is not revealed as merely a son of God, but as the ONLY Son. John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    There is so much confusion over the Trinity on this Website. I think the main reason for that is because the Watchtower Society, for over 100 years now, has absolutely misrepresented and twisted the actual Doctrine of the Trinity.

    The Watchtower Society will use this argument against the Trinity:

    If Jesus is God, then who did He pray to while on Earth, Himself?

    That is a bogus question because Trinitarians believe that The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit are Three Distinct, Separate Persons, who are in Unity as One God.

    Think about it this way: There are 10 persons who make up ONE Body [the Governing Body].

    A husband and wife are two persons but they become ONE flesh.

    Please go to this Post for more information on the Trinity (everything on my post is 100% based on the Bible): http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/52140/755115/post.ashx#755115

    Francois, the reason why so many people believe that Jesus Christ is God is because (a) Jesus Himself said that He was equal with The Father and that He was God, and (b) the Holy Scriptures teach that Jesus is God.

  • Francois
    Francois

    "Holy" scripture teaches Jesus is God?

    First, there's nothing Holy about the christian scripture. It's merely the secular history of the Jews all tricked out to appear to be Holy. Second, The apostles may have believed that Jesus was God...but they were wrong.

    Jesus is a son of God just like me albiet on a vastly higher level. The level of his divinity is so perfect that He and his father are ONE, but this does not make him the second person of the trinity. This is merely a pleasing fable.

    francois

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Francois said:

    "Holy" scripture teaches Jesus is God?

    First, there's nothing Holy about the christian scripture. It's merely the secular history of the Jews all tricked out to appear to be Holy. Second, The apostles may have believed that Jesus was God...but they were wrong.

    You are definitely entitled to you own beliefs and opinions, however, I have a couple questions for you:

    How do you know? Were you there? Were you an eye-witness of what Jesus said and did? And, if the Scriptures are not Holy, then why believe in Jesus at all? Because, if you can't trust the Scriptures, then we basically know absolutely nothing about Jesus.

    Francois said:

    Jesus is a son of God just like me albiet on a vastly higher level. The level of his divinity is so perfect that He and his father are ONE, but this does not make him the second person of the trinity. This is merely a pleasing fable.
    Where do you get that information from? A book? Divine revelation from God? Your own opinions?

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