Astronomy Vision

by refiners fire 5 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Self deluded “channels” and the justifications they concoct to excuse their false prophecies are a thing of fascination. The most striking thing about these prophets is their predictability. They all fall into the very same trap, they all get trapped by their own totalistic words . The dubs are no different from the ‘Amazing Truth’ Adventist group, Mormons, or The ‘Church Universal and Triumphant’ in terms of the need to use slippery arguments to excuse erroneous utterances by the Prophet/ channel. They have all made absolutist statements that proved erroneous, and they all use the same basic arguments to cover up their error. They all shift the blame, they all deny they ever said it, they all postpone the fulfilment of prophecy, etc. All the cults use the same basic lines of argument to attempt to slip the noose of error, but the subtle differences between groups in their methods are quite fascinating. The example following is an Adventist example from the mid 19 th century. The following quotes are all from a single book called

    ELLEN G WHITE AND HER CRITICS . By Francis Nichol.

    Nichol is an Adventist apologist, a refuter of Adventist ‘Apostates’ who accuse the ‘channel’ (Ellen G White) of lying / deception. Let the reader be aware that it is not an organizational channel of truth that Adventists recognize but an individual, Ellen G White. Thus, the preservation of this individuals infallibility is the primary aim of the Apologist Nichol. Nichol is explaining apparent contradictions in statements and ‘visions’ received by Ellen G White. Quotes are from the section of his book called:

    THE ASTRONOMY VISION

    QUOTE: “The Apostates Charge that: ‘Mrs. White was having visions which [Joseph] Bates did not believe were of God; but they [Mrs. White and her husband] were anxious to convince him that they were genuine. Bates had been a sea captain, and had consequently studied the stars; had, in fact, become enthusiastic about astronomy. In the presence of Mrs. White and others he had often talked about the different planets, their positions, moons, and the ‘opening heavens….”One evening at the conference above mentioned [Topsham, Maine, 1846], in the house of Mr. Curtis, and in the presence of Elder (Captain) Bates, who was yet undecided in regard to the manifestations, Mrs. White, while in vision, began to talk about the stars, giving a glowing description of the rosy-tinted belts which she saw across the surface of some planet, and added, “I see four moons.” “Oh,” said Elder Bates, “she is viewing Jupiter.” Then, having made motions as though travelling through space, she began giving descriptions of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, “I see seven moons.” “She is describing Saturn.” Next came a description of Uranus with his six moons, then a wonderful description of the “opening heavens.” … “This was sufficient, and accomplished its purpose. Elder Bates was convinced, and became a firm believer in the visions.”

    This passage is quoted by the apologist Nichol from a standard Adventist History “The Great Second Advent Movement” by J N Loughborough, published in the 1890s when the dubs were still in diapers. According to sect historian Loughborough, from that night forth, The extremely WEALTHY Bates became a fully convicted believer in Ellen Whites “prophethood”, And he contributed accordingly, However, as Adventist ‘apostates’ point out, there is now, (1944) a problem with Mrs Whites ‘vision’. Nichol says:

    QUOTE: “Later discoveries have now shown that both Jupiter and Saturn have MORE MOONS than she said.”

    How does The Apologist explain these ‘false visions’ of Mrs White?? Nichol requotes the passage to point something out to us:

    QUOTE: “I see four moons.” “Oh,” SAID ELDER BATES, “SHE IS VIEWING JUPITER”. Then, having made motions as though travelling through space, she began giving descriptions of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, “I see seven moons.” SAID BATES “SHE IS DESCRIBING SATURN”.

    The astute reader will notice that, in the passage quoted ( From Loughborough) it is not Mrs White who mentions Saturn or Jupiter, rather, it is the soon to be converted BATES. This pattern of blame shifting justification continues in the apologists very next quote:

    QUOTE: “In May, 1847, James White made this brief reference to the 1846 vision:….“At our conference in Topsham, Maine, last Nov., Ellen had a vision of the handy works of God. She was guided to the planets, Jupiter, Saturn, and I think one more. After she came out of vision, she could give a clear description of their Moons, etc. It is well known, that she knew nothing of astronomy, and could not answer one question in relation to the planets, before she had this vision.”—A Word to the “Little Flock,” p. 22”

    Here he is quoting JAMES WHITE, Ellen Whites husband and co founder of the Adventist publishing house. James White has ASSUMED Ellen was referring to Saturn and Jupiter, as did Bates ASSUME, But neither of these people are the CHANNEL thru which God communicates. Only Mrs White is the channel, so, like White House officials in service of a beleaguered president, the Secretary of State, the Vice President all posthumously step up to the block to be chopped, even the innocent have to accept blame for ASSUMING things that the channel never said. The apologist Nichol continues:

    QUOTE: “Mrs. M. C. Truesdail (nee Stowell), who, as a girl of about sixteen, was present when the vision was given, wrote a letter of reminiscences in which she included this statement:…“Sister White was in very feeble health, and while prayers were offered in her behalf, the Spirit of God rested upon us. We soon noticed that she was insensible to earthly things. This was her first view of the planetary world. After counting aloud the moons of Jupiter, and soon after those of Saturn, she gave a beautiful description of the rings of the latter. She then said, ‘The inhabitants are a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth. Sin has never entered here.’ It was evident from Brother Bates's smiling face that his past doubts in regard to the source of her visions were fast leaving him. We all knew that Captain Bates was a great lover of astronomy, as he would often locate many of the heavenly bodies for our instruction. When Sister White replied to his questions, after the vision, saying that she had never studied or otherwise received knowledge in this direction, he was filled with joy and happiness. He praised God, and expressed his belief that this vision concerning the planets was given that he might never again doubt.”

    The ‘inhabitants of Saturn are tall and majestic’. Lol. Loughborough has left that little statement out of his account of the vision altogether. But what is important is that, in the churches official version, everyone at the session, Captain Bates- later the third most important man in the movement, James White- The second most important person in the movement, Loughborough- the chief historian of the movement… All these people ASSUMED Mrs White was talking about Jupiter and Saturn, but she herself NEVER SAID IT. The followers “assumed”, incorrectly, as it turns out, and the channel is not guilty of false utterance. Surely this is a comprehensive example of the standard cult excuse of blaming the listeners for “reading things into the Watchtower, that were never said”. . (reposted because I cant find it anywhere in the forum rooms)

  • starScream
    starScream
    The dubs are no different from the ‘Amazing Truth’ Adventist group,

    Are you sure you dont mean 'Amazing Facts'?

    interesting article.

    The ‘inhabitants of Saturn are tall and majestic’

    kids and there imaginations...

    All these people ASSUMED Mrs White was talking about Jupiter and Saturn, but she herself NEVER SAID IT.

    If she knew it was wrong I think she should have at least said something.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Star. They are the same group yes. It used to be known as Amazing Truth, but is now called Amazing Facts

    But what about the information in the post? Do you know anything of Adventism? They are quite interesting

  • starScream
    starScream

    I know a little about SDA. Adventism as a whole I don't know so much about. I consider the WTS to be a part of Adventism.

    I have read some of the earlier SDA writings but due to such factors as the coverup of such writings, the fewer aberrations, the lack of SDA in my family, and the lower growth rate I prefer to focus my efforts on the WTS. Mormonism is a close second.

    When dealing with SDAs I tend to run into a brick wall because to them worshipping on any day but saturn's-day is satanic. That seems to be the defense mechanism that equals the WTS's you-all-go-to-war mechanism. The total insanity and lack of scripture relating to their defense mechanism makes it much more difficult to respond to convince them and they don't move past that bump in the road.

    I find that most cults have some crazy unique defense mechanism that is, in the end, unbiblical, but somehow so ingrained into their mentality that no matter how much you do to expose the error, the complexity of it in their mind makes any progress in addressing it, impossible.

    With the Christadelphians it is the Christian's idea of evil spirits that is their defense mechanism. With Mormons it seems to be the intangible grandeur of their organization and how great it is to be a part of it. With Catholics it is "dogmatic law" that they think is biblical.

    I don't really know how modern SDAs view EG White and since their is so much information readily available on her already I don't know what contribution I could realistically make.

    I have heard audio on her insane idea's which were entertaining but in the end not all that surprising. The sheer volume of insane ramblings of EGW bores me in about 20 minutes because nothing surprises me after about 2.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Star. Your theory about "defence mechanisms" is something I have considered myself. Although I refer to them as "Identifier doctrines" . I think most of the churches must have their 'defence mechanism' as you refer to it. With Seventh Days it is most assuredly Saturday Sabbath. They believe that the observance of Saturday Sabbath is the ultimate TEST that identifies one as worthy of extermination or bliss. I would say that the key Witness Identifier is the door to door work. As to Christadelphians I confess I know nothing about them save that they hold to the date 1914 as the Witnesses do.

    The Mormons are a funny lot. Its important to realize they were intensely persecuted for a very long time over matters of polygamy and trying to take over the town of Independence, Missouri in the 1830s . If any church is identified as the true church by virtue of persecution it is the Mormons, not the dubs.Because of the history of persecution the Mormon church is absorbed with self sufficiency, thrift, expansion, business development and building the state of "Zion". It is the most original church in the Western hemisphere, having many strange and unusual doctrines, too many to list completely. A radical experiment in churchianity.

  • starScream
    starScream
    A radical experiment in churchianity.

    a radical success at that.

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