144,000 ?

by 24k 6 Replies latest forum tech-support

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  24k

  While in the midst of a discussion with my wife, who is a devout witness, regarding who go to heaven, it dawned on me that the wbts teaching that only 144,000 go to heaven seems to have a fatal flaw in the math. According to Acts 2:41 "... about three thousand souls were added to their number that day." speaking of christians. Acts 4:4 "But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand." not including women. Acts 6:7 "So the word of God spread. The number of disciples increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith." All through Acts, the congregations are growing by leaps and bounds. If three thousands believers are added in a single day, and all of these are annointed christians, it doesn't seem like it would take too long to reach the number 144,000. It would certainly seem reasonable that the number would be reached within a decade or two. If that was the case, and only 144,000 go to heaven, then no one in the twentieth century would be eligible to go.

  Has anyone come across any estimates of the number of christians around during the first century. The wtbs would obviously argue that christians brought in after the end of the first century would be part of the great apostasy and so wouldn't count.

  Just a thought... 24k
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  Hamas

  Hey 24 k!

  Welcome to the board, my friend.

  I wish you peace in your jouney away from the Watchtower, and hope that your wife follows suite.

  On the subject of the 144k, have you read Revelation 19:1 ?

  Have fun here amigo, you will find lots of great info on this board !!

  http://www.escapethewatchtower.com/Heaven_or_Earth.htm
• 

  Brummie

  24k, welcome aboard! Yes Scripture says "Many were added to their number daily" and as you pointed out it mentions 1000s who have the heavenly hope. The Roman catacombs are said to hold over 4 million christian martyrs, obviously JWS choose to conveniently overlook this.

  Then there is the issue of the amount of Christians that have exsisted throughout the centuries up until Charles T Russell came on the scene. The Watchtower tries to solve the problem by mentioning groups like the Waldenses & AnnaBaptist, how many of these people were of the heavenly hope? According to WT doctrine, all of them would be.

  Your observations are valuble.

  Brummie

  BTW if you are discussing the earthly or heavenly hope you may want to take a few thoughts from this little article: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/48545/1.ashx
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  RR

  When you make the great company of Revelation 7 a spiritual class, you don't have that problem with numbers.

  I firmly believe in two salvations, the Church NOW in heaven and the rest of mankind in the kingdom on earth, but I also believe the 144,000 and great company are heavenly classes.

  When you considre what is expected of everyone who runs the race of the high calling, and how the Father wants only the best, (because he will not give immortality to just anyone) the number of 144,000 isn't so obscene.

  Consider, from 33 to 2003 (1,970 years) there would have been an average of 73 Christians per year who would have been chosen to reign with Jesus, and that's if they made their "calling and election sure".

  Consider the great apostasy after the death of the apostlesm, the corruption of the Church, the dark ages, when the Bible was banned, the truth of the gospels hidden, few could make any calling.

  So I don't think the numbers are so far fetched.
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  Room 215

  Welcome aboard 24K. As you point out, the flaw in limiting anointed Christians to a literal 144,000 is effectively invalidated by doing the math, i.e.: how long is the era of pure apostolic Christianity? From Pentecost 33 to say the death of the last suriving apostle John, in 98 CE? Or if you opt for a more conservative figure for the sake of argument, let's limit it from Pentecost 33 to the death of the apostle Paul in 65 CE, or just 32 years.

  Extrapolating the figures you cite from the book of Acts as to the adding of thousands within days of Pentecost, what would one reasonably reckon to be a VERY conservative estimate of the annual growth rate during that 32-year period? 3,000? That would account for 96,000 full-fledged partakers! 4,000? That bloats the number to 128,000! And at 5,000, we're looking at 160,000! And that ignores the intervening 1970 years or so until the present tme.
• 

  amac

  Forget about whether the number is accurate. Ask your wife why everything else surrounding the number 144,000 in Revelation is taken figuritively but magically, that number is supposed to be taken literally. Even though the tribes that they are taken from are acknowledged by JWs as being figurative.
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  Nathan Natas

  It has been estimated that during the Roman persecution of the early Christians, FIVE MILLION were martyred. It's had to imagine that the ranks of the 144K weren't filled pretty quickly long ago.

  Of course, you realize the whole thing is imaginary, right?