An interesting article on the Sons apparent identification as Wisdom

by Blotty 5 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    "None of the three apologists attempts to express the coming forth of

    the Word with the verbs ‘to create’ (κτίζειν) and ‘to establish’ (θεμελιοῦν)

    from Prov 8:22–23. Next to the verbs ‘to bring forth’ (προβάλλειν) and

    ‘to come forth’ (προέρχεσθαι), all three authors predominantly employ

    the verb γεννᾶν (‘beget’) or the verbal noun γέννημα (‘ofspring’) in their

    formulations of the relation of origin of the Son from the Father. Justin

    and Theophilus indicate that the begottenness of the Son is connected

    with the name of Wisdom in their thought."

    with the name of Wisdom in their thought.

    https://www.academia.edu/97689201/Prov_8_22ff_in_Early_Christian_Statements_on_the_Relation_of_Origin_of_the_Son_from_the_Father_The_Case_of_Justin_Athenagoras_and_Theophilus?email_work_card=reading-history

    (Lets see if AQ has read this one & can get details about it correct - I will ask the author what they meant to refute you AQ if you try and twist their words.)

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The Hebrew poet of Proverbs 8 clothes an abstract divine attribute— חָכְמָה (chokmāh, “wisdom”)—in lively, feminine imagery to celebrate the order and intelligibility God builds into creation. Wisdom is pictured “beside” God, delighting in the divine work, but she is never given an independent cult, a throne, or the covenantal titles reserved for the Lord alone. Second-Temple writers therefore speak of her as a hypostatic metaphor: Sirach can call her the “first of God’s works” while yet insisting that all worship is directed to the one Creator (Sir 1:4; 24:8–12). In short, Proverbs is poetry, not ontology.

    Because Jewish tradition already read Proverbs 8 typologically, the earliest Christians quite naturally adopted the same strategy when they preached Christ as the eternal λόγος. Justin, Athenagoras and Theophilus quote or allude to the passage precisely at those moments when they wish to underline two theological points: that the Son is pre-temporal and that he is God’s agent in creation. Yet all three very carefully avoid importing the Septuagint’s verb κτισεν (“created”) into their Christological grammar. A recent close study of these writers observes that “none of the three apologists attempts to express the coming forth of the Word with the verbs ‘to create’ (κτίζειν) or ‘to establish’ (θεμελιοῦν) from Prov 8:22–23” and that they “predominantly employ the verb γεννᾶν (‘beget’) or the noun γέννημα (‘offspring’)”. Their linguistic instinct thus already anticipates the Nicene axiom “begotten, not made.”

    Justin Martyr twice cites the whole section (Prov 8:22-25) in his Dialogue with Trypho, but when he applies it he speaks of the Son as “the Beginning before all creatures” and—significantly—adds that God “has begotten” this rational Power from himself . Where Proverbs reads “the Lord created me,” Justin changes the register: the verb of creation drops out; γεννν alone remains. The text therefore functions for him as a witness to pre-existence and primacy, not as proof that the Son belongs to the order of made things.

    Athenagoras adopts the same strategy. He quotes only the first half-line of Prov 8:22 but immediately glosses it: the Son is “the Father’s first offspring, not as though he came into existence” (οὐχ ὡς γενόμενον) and he proceeded “to serve as form and energy for creation”. Here again ἔκτισεν has no ontological weight; the decisive terms are γέννημα and προελθών. The apologist’s Platonic vocabulary of δέα and νέργεια underscores function, not creaturehood.

    Theophilus of Antioch goes further: “If I say Wisdom, I mean his offspring” (σοφίαν… γέννημα) and contrasts the Word’s eternal immanence in God with his temporal eruption for the sake of creation. When he finally cites Prov 8 he omits verse 22 entirely, preferring later lines that speak of Wisdom “beside” God while he sets the heavens in place. Theophilus, like his predecessors, refuses to ground Christ’s sonship on the LXX’s κτίσις.

    The unanimous patristic pattern therefore looks like this:

    1. Proverbs 8 is read typologically. It offers conceptual language—“beginning,” “with God,” “delight”—that helps the Church describe the Son’s role ad extra, but it is never treated as a literal biography of the Son ad intra.
    2. Whenever the apologists speak of origin, they replace κτίζειν with γεννν. Their lexical choice already marks an ontological divide between the eternal procession of the Son within the Godhead and God’s creative act toward what is not-God.
    3. They recognize that the Septuagint translator chose κτίζω to safeguard strict monotheism in a Jewish context, but they decline to transfer that verb into Trinitarian theology because, once the Son is confessed as truly divine, “created” becomes semantically inappropriate.

    For these reasons the Arian inference—“Wisdom is created, therefore the Son is a creature”—is a category mistake. The Wisdom poems supply typological vocabulary; they do not dictate metaphysical status. The very fathers whom the Arians enlist as allies are, in fact, our earliest witnesses that Christian exegesis had already erected a lexical fence between κτίσις and γέννησις. When Nicaea finally coined the concise antithesis “begotten, not made,” it was not inventing a novelty; it was canonizing the hermeneutical instinct of Justin, Athenagoras and Theophilus.

    Consequently, identifying the Son one-for-one with the poetic figure of Wisdom and construing Proverbs 8 as a literal ontological statement misreads both the genre of the Hebrew text and the consistent theological trajectory of the ante-Nicene Church. Wisdom in Proverbs is the type; the eternal Son to whom the New Testament bears witness is the antitype. Typology illuminates; it does not flatten difference. On that distinction—ignored by Arianism and honored by orthodoxy—the coherence of Trinitarian faith depends.

    The Arian argument hinges on a selective interpretation of the article "Prov 8:22ff in Early Christian Statement" by Pavel Dudzik, particularly the passage cited:

    "None of the three apologists attempts to express the coming forth of the Word with the verbs ‘to create’ (κτίζειν) and ‘to establish’ (θεμελιοῦν) from Prov 8:22–23. Next to the verbs ‘to bring forth’ (προβάλλειν) and ‘to come forth’ (προέρχεσθαι), all three authors predominantly employ the verb γεννᾶν (‘beget’) or the verbal noun γέννημα (‘offspring’) in their formulations of the relation of origin of the Son from the Father. Justin and Theophilus indicate that the begottenness of the Son is connected with the name of Wisdom in their thought."

    The Arian claim here suggests that this linguistic preference in the writings of Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, and Theophilus of Antioch supports their view of the Son as a created being, identified with Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22–25, and thus ontologically subordinate to the Father. From a Trinitarian perspective, this interpretation fundamentally misrepresents both the article’s analysis and the theological intent of the apologists, failing to account for the nuanced distinction between "begetting" and "creating," the typological use of Proverbs 8, and the broader context of early Christian doctrine. This response will systematically and thoroughly refute the Arian reading, demonstrating that the apologists’ language and theology align with the Trinitarian affirmation of the Son’s eternal generation and consubstantiality with the Father, not with the Arian notion of a created Son.

    At the core of the Trinitarian refutation is the distinction between the terms "begetting" (γεννν) and "creating" (κτζειν), a distinction that the Arian argument overlooks in its attempt to conflate the two concepts. In Trinitarian theology, "begetting" denotes the eternal generation of the Son from the Father, an intra-divine relationship wherein the Son shares the same divine essence (οὐσία) as the Father, rendering him co-eternal and consubstantial. This is not a temporal act but an eternal reality within the Godhead, where the Son proceeds from the Father’s being without beginning or end. By contrast, "creating" refers to an act of divine will whereby God brings contingent beings into existence from nothing (ex nihilo), resulting in entities that are ontologically distinct from the Creator. The article explicitly notes that Justin, Athenagoras, and Theophilus avoid using κτίζειν ("to create") and θεμελιοῦν ("to establish")—terms present in the Septuagint text of Proverbs 8:22–23 ("The Lord created me" and "he founded me")—when describing the Son’s origin. Instead, they consistently employ γεννᾶν ("to beget") or γέννημα ("offspring"), signaling a deliberate theological choice to differentiate the Son’s generation from the creation of the world. This linguistic preference undermines the Arian assertion that the Son is a created being, as it suggests the apologists viewed the Son’s "coming forth" as a unique derivation from the Father’s essence, not an act of creation akin to that of the universe.

    The significance of this terminological distinction is further illuminated by the apologists’ theological context, writing in the second century before the Arian controversy and the Council of Nicaea (325 CE). Their task was to articulate the relationship between the Father and the Son within a monotheistic framework, drawing on biblical texts and philosophical categories available to them. Far from supporting an Arian subordinationist Christology, their writings affirm the Son’s pre-existence and divine role in creation, concepts foundational to Trinitarian doctrine. Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue with Trypho (61), describes the Son as the "first-begotten" (πρωτότοκος) of the Father, existing "before all creatures," and through whom all things were made. This echoes New Testament passages such as John 1:3 ("All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made") and Colossians 1:16–17, which position the Son as the uncreated agent of creation, not a part of the created order. Justin’s use of Proverbs 8:22–36, introduced with the assertion that the Son is "begotten of the Father before all creatures," emphasizes the Son’s pre-existence and mediatorial role, not his creaturehood. The Arian reading, which seizes on the phrase "The Lord created me" (Prov 8:22 LXX) to argue for the Son’s created status, ignores Justin’s interpretive framework, where "begetting" denotes a distinct, eternal relationship, not a temporal act of creation.

    Athenagoras, in his Legatio pro Christianis (10), similarly describes the Son as the "first offspring" (πρῶτον γέννημα) of the Father, yet he underscores the Son’s eternal presence with the Father, identifying him as the "idea" (ἰδέα) and "power" (δύναμις) through which all things were made. This language suggests an eternal generation, not a creation event, as the Son is portrayed as intrinsic to the Father’s being and action. Athenagoras’ quotation of Proverbs 8:22 serves to highlight the Son’s role as the foundation of creation, not to imply that he himself was created. His avoidance of κτίζειν in favor of terms like προέλθων ("came forth") and γέννημα reinforces the distinction between the Son’s origin and the creation of contingent beings. The Arian interpretation misreads this as evidence of creaturehood, failing to recognize that Athenagoras’ emphasis on the Son’s unity with the Father—"the Son of God is the Word of the Father in form and power" (Leg. 10)—aligns with a proto-Trinitarian understanding of shared divinity, not subordination.

    Theophilus of Antioch, in To Autolycus (II.10), offers a parallel affirmation, describing the Son as the "Word innate in his own bowels," begotten (γεννᾶν) together with Sophia (Wisdom) "before everything else." His use of vivid imagery, such as "vomiting forth" (a metaphor for begetting), underscores the internal, eternal nature of the Son’s generation from the Father, distinct from external acts of creation. Theophilus connects the Son with Wisdom, stating that God "begot him together with his own Sophia," yet this does not imply that the Son is a created entity. Rather, it positions the Son as the divine Wisdom through whom creation occurs, a role consistent with John 1:3 and Trinitarian theology. The absence of κτίζειν or θεμελιοῦν in his description of the Son’s origin, despite their availability in Proverbs 8:22–23, further indicates that Theophilus did not view the Son as a creature but as an eternal participant in the Godhead, begotten before all things and instrumental in their creation.

    The Arian argument’s reliance on the connection between the Son’s "begottenness" and Wisdom in Proverbs 8 falters when the typological nature of the text is considered. Proverbs 8 is a poetic personification of God’s attribute of wisdom, not a literal account of the Son’s origin. Early Christian apologists employed it typologically, seeing Wisdom as a foreshadowing of Christ, the divine Logos, rather than a direct statement of his ontological status. Justin, for instance, introduces Proverbs 8:22–36 with the clarification that the Son is "begotten of the Father before all creatures," using the passage to affirm the Son’s pre-existence and role as mediator of creation, not to suggest he was created. Theophilus likewise ties the Son’s begottenness to Wisdom but emphasizes his eternal presence with the Father, not a moment of creation. The Arian insistence that Prov 8:22 proves the Son’s creaturehood misinterprets this typological usage, ignoring the apologists’ intent to highlight the Son’s divine identity and agency, not his subordination.

    This typological reading was later refined by Church Fathers explicitly combating Arianism, providing a hermeneutical lens that clarifies the apologists’ intent. Athanasius, in his Orations Against the Arians, argued that Proverbs 8:22 refers to the Son’s incarnate mission, not his eternal generation, preserving the distinction between his divine nature and his economic role. Basil of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa interpreted the verse as pertaining to the Son’s role in creation, not his own creation, aligning with the apologists’ emphasis on the Son as the uncreated agent of all things. The second-century apologists, though writing before these clarifications, exhibit a consistent trajectory toward this Trinitarian understanding, using Proverbs 8 to affirm the Son’s pre-existence and divinity, not to diminish him to a creaturely status as the Arians claim.

    The article itself, as reflected in the cited passage, does not support the Arian position but rather underscores the apologists’ preference for "begetting" over "creating," a choice that aligns with the later Nicene formulation of the Son as "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father." The Arian attempt to twist this into evidence for their view rests on a superficial reading of terms like "coming forth" and "begetting," ignoring the theological weight these carry in the apologists’ writings. Justin, Athenagoras, and Theophilus consistently portray the Son as pre-existent, divine, and integral to the act of creation, not as a created intermediary. Their avoidance of creation language (κτίζειν, θεμελιοῦν) and embrace of generation language (γεννᾶν, γέννημα) reflects an early articulation of the Son’s eternal relationship with the Father, a relationship formalized at Nicaea but already present in embryonic form in their works.

    In conclusion, the Arian interpretation of the article and the apologists’ use of Proverbs 8:22–25 fails to withstand scrutiny from a Trinitarian perspective. It misrepresents the distinction between "begetting" and "creating," overlooks the typological intent behind the apologists’ use of Wisdom, and disregards the broader theological context of their affirmation of the Son’s divinity and pre-existence. Far from supporting an Arian reading, the writings of Justin, Athenagoras, and Theophilus provide a foundation for the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity, affirming the Son as eternally begotten, not created, and consubstantial with the Father. The Arian claim collapses under the weight of this evidence, revealing a misreading that cannot be sustained against the apologists’ own words or the trajectory of orthodox Christian theology.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    With Trinitarians words never mean what they say.

    When church Fathers repeatedly quoted scripture saying God created Wisdom/Jesus they didn’t really mean that God created Wisdom/Jesus.

    When Origen said Jesus is a second god subordinate to God he didn’t really mean he is a second god subordinate to God.

    When Tertullian said there was a time when the Son was not, he didn’t really mean there was a time when the Son didn’t exist.

    When Justin Martyr said Jesus was is angel he didn’t really mean he is an angel.

    When the Shepherd of Hermas identified Jesus with the archangel Michael it didn’t really mean that Jesus is Michael.

    When Paul said Jesus is the firstborn of all creation he didn’t mean that either.

    And when Jesus himself said the Father is greater than I what he really meant to say was that: “one of my dual natures is consubstantial with the Father whereas my other human nature is less than the Father and these two natures subsist yet do not commingle in the one person you see before you.”

    Thanks goodness for Trinitarians, otherwise we could be misled into thinking all these simply meant what they said.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    Your critique posits that Trinitarians systematically misinterpret early Christian writings and biblical texts to fit their doctrine, suggesting a deliberate distortion of plain meanings. The charge that Trinitarian theologians must perennially rescue their doctrine by emptying words of their “plain meaning” gains its rhetorical force from a series of surfacelevel juxtapositions, yet it evaporates once those statements are restored to the literary, philosophical, and polemical horizons in which they were first uttered. The writers invoked—Origen, Tertullian, Justin, the composer of the Shepherd of Hermas, Paul, and the Johannine Jesus—speak from disparate decades, genres, and intellectual idioms. To read each utterance as though it were a line in a modern analytic creed is to erase precisely what the history of doctrine is meant to illuminate: how the Church gradually discovered technical vocabulary adequate to a mystery already confessed in its worship.

    This critique targets statements by Origen, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, the Shepherd of Hermas, Paul, and Jesus himself, claiming they support an Arian view of Jesus as a created, subordinate being. A systematic Trinitarian response, grounded in historical theology, linguistic analysis, and scriptural context, refutes this claim, demonstrating that these statements align with the doctrine of the Trinity, which affirms one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with the Son eternally begotten, not created, and consubstantial with the Father.

    Origen's "Second God" and Subordination

    Origen's use of "second god" (deuteros theos) in works like "Contra Celsum" must be understood within his engagement with Platonic philosophy and second-century Christian theology. He describes the Son as "the image of the invisible God" and "God from God, Light from Light," echoing later Nicene formulations. While Origen speaks of the Son as subordinate, this subordination is functional, relating to the economy of salvation, not ontological. For instance, in "On First Principles," he affirms the Son's eternal generation, stating, "The Father is always Father, the Son always Son," indicating no temporal beginning for the Son. The Arian interpretation, which takes "second god" to mean a lesser deity, ignores Origen's broader affirmation of the Son's divinity and his role as the mediator through whom all things were made, consistent with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17.

    The same passage of Contra Celsum that calls the Son “a second god” also insists that the Son is eternally generated, inseparable from the Father’s own substance, and therefore the unique mediator in whom creatures are deified. Origen’s distinction between πρώτος θεός and δεύτερος θεός is a pastoral clarification aimed at pagan critics who accused Christians of collapsing Creator and cosmos. The number “second” marks personal differentiation within the simple divine essence; it does not introduce an ontological gap. Far from anticipating Arianism, Origen is explicit that “there was never when the Son was not,” a line Arius himself would later reject.

    Tertullian's Alleged Statement on the Son's Non-Existence

    The Arian claim that Tertullian said "there was a time when the Son was not" is a misattribution, as this phrase is famously associated with Arius during the fourth-century controversy. Tertullian, in "Against Praxeas," articulates a proto-Trinitarian view, describing the Word (Logos) as eternally present within the Father: "Before all things, God was alone, but not thereby solitary; for He had His Reason within Him... This Reason is His consciousness... This is the Word of God." Tertullian's language of begetting, as in "the Son was begotten for the purpose of creation," refers to an eternal relationship, not a temporal event, aligning with Trinitarian theology. His distinction between the immanent and economic Trinity supports the Son's eternal existence, refuting the Arian reading.

    Tertullian’s remark that the Son was “not yet Son” before creation belongs to an argument against modalism, not to a denial of the Logos’s eternal reality. In Adversus Praxean the North-African jurist insists that God was always rational (since Reason, ratio, is intrinsic to mind); what became Son ad extra was already the Father’s eternal Word ad intra. Tertullian thus distinguishes between the immanent procession of the Logos and his visible mission—an economic register later standardized as the distinction between the Son’s eternal generation and his temporal sending. A single clause lifted from that discussion cannot be re-deployed as proof that Tertullian thought the Word himself began to exist.

    Justin Martyr's Reference to Jesus as an "Angel"

    Justin Martyr, in "Dialogue with Trypho" 56, refers to the pre-incarnate Christ as an "angel of the Lord," appearing in Old Testament theophanies like the burning bush (Exodus 3:2). However, "angel" (angelos) means "messenger" in Greek, denoting a functional role, not ontological status. Justin clarifies that this "angel" is "another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things," affirming the Son's divinity and pre-existence. He states, "I shall attempt to persuade you... that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord... above whom there is no other God," emphasizing the Son's equality with the Father in divinity. This functional language does not support Arian creatureliness but aligns with Trinitarian views of the Son as the divine revealer.

    Justin’s designation of Christ as “angel” operates in an entirely different semantic field from later systematic theology. In second-century Greek γγελος denotes a function—messenger—rather than a species in a fixed ontological taxonomy. Justin’s purpose in Dialogue with Trypho is to identify the figure who appears as “the angel of the Lord” in Genesis and Exodus with the pre-incarnate Logos who is worshipped as God. Hence he does not hesitate to say in the same breath that this messenger is both “another God” and “Lord of the hosts” while still subordinate in role to the Father. The Arian inference that “angel” must mean created spirit would have dumbfounded Justin himself, who in the very same chapter stresses that all the other angels worship this one.

    The Shepherd of Hermas and Alleged Identification with Michael

    The Shepherd of Hermas, an early second-century text, presents ambiguous Christology, but the Arian claim that it identifies Jesus with the archangel Michael is overstated. In Similitude 8, the "angel of the Lord" is described as glorious and tall, potentially Michael, but Similitude 9 identifies the Son of God as the law, the willow tree, preached to the world, distinct from angelic figures. Even if some early interpretations equated Jesus with Michael, this would be metaphorical, reflecting Jewish traditions of exalted archangels, not implying creatureliness. The text's high view of the Son, as "older than all his creation" and involved in creation, aligns with Trinitarian pre-existence, not Arian subordination.

    The Shepherd of Hermas is a parable, not a creed. Its layered allegories speak of the “holy angel” who presides over the Church and of a Son older than all creation who builds the tower of salvation. Nowhere does the text equate that Son with Michael by name, and patristic readers who glimpsed faint resemblances treated them as metaphors of guardianship, not as an ontological identity. Even if a strand of early Roman piety had blurred those figures, the convergence would prove only that second-century Christians still lacked the later Church’s precision in angelology, not that they considered Christ a finite seraph. Hermas calls the Son “pre-existent before all creation” and depicts every virtuous stone as “carried up into the tower through him”—language irreconcilable with Arian creaturehood.

    Paul's "Firstborn of All Creation" in Colossians 1:15

    The Arian interpretation takes "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος) in Colossians 1:15 as chronological, suggesting Jesus was the first created being. However, biblical usage, such as Psalm 89:27 ("I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth"), indicates "firstborn" denotes preeminence and supremacy. In context, Colossians 1:16-17 clarifies, "For by him all things were created... and he is before all things, and in him all things hold together," positioning Christ as the Creator, not a creature. This genitive of subordination, not partitivity, affirms his divine authority, consistent with Trinitarian theology and supported by Hebrews 1:6, where angels worship him, a prerogative of God alone.

    In Hellenistic Greek πρωτότοκος followed by a genitive often signals supremacy, not inclusion, as when Psalm 89 (LXX 88:28) makes David the “firstborn, highest of the kings of the earth.” The Colossian hymn immediately glosses its own title: “for in him all things were created… and he is before all things.” A being through whom the totality of creatures comes to be is not itself numbered among those creatures. The Apostle’s grammar therefore mirrors his theology of cosmic mediation rather than supplying a cryptic hint that Christ emerged from non-being.

    Jesus' Statement "The Father is Greater Than I" in John 14:28

    Jesus' words in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," are often cited to argue for his inferiority. However, Trinitarian theology, with its doctrine of the two natures of Christ, interprets this within the Incarnation. Philippians 2:6-7 states, "Though he was in the form of God, he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant." Thus, in his human nature, Jesus is subordinate, but in his divine nature, he is equal, as seen in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." John 14:28, in context, prepares the disciples for his ascension, emphasizing his return to glory, not denying divinity, aligning with Trinitarian views.

    When Jesus says “the Father is greater than I” he speaks as the incarnate Son who has “emptied himself” into the form of a servant. The same Gospel opens by declaring the Word to be God and closes with Thomas’s confession “my Lord and my God.” John’s Christology unfurls along two co-ordinate axes: equality of essence (1:1; 5:23; 10:30) and freely chosen, economic obedience (4:34; 17:4). The conciliar lexicon of “one person in two natures” was coined four centuries later to preserve that double witness, not to impose an anachronistic dualism onto the text. Chalcedon’s terminology crystallised what John’s narrative already forces readers to hold together: the eternal Logos can say both “I and the Father are one” and “the Father is greater” without contradiction, because his deity and his assumed humanity speak from different registers of the same person’s life.

    Conclusion and Broader Context

    The pattern that emerges across these examples is not semantic legerdemain but disciplined attention to context. Early Christians stretched inherited words—god, beget, angel, first-born—because they were straining to confess a reality for which no existing idiom was entirely adequate. Arianism solved the tension by collapsing transcendence into a highest creature; Nicene faith retained the older texts yet re-calibrated their edges so that the full range of biblical testimony could resonate without mutual cancellation. The result is not a flight from “plain meaning” but the maturation of language in the face of a mystery that resists simplification.

    The Arian critique, by suggesting Trinitarians distort meanings, fails to account for the historical and theological development of Christian doctrine. Each point, when examined, supports a Trinitarian framework, affirming the Son's eternal divinity, distinct personhood, and consubstantiality with the Father. This interpretation, rooted in scriptural synthesis and patristic reflection, addresses the complexity of early Christian thought, refuting the Arian reduction of the Son to a created being and upholding the orthodox confession of the Trinity as articulated at Nicaea and beyond.

    If one insists that every ancient sentence must bear only its most facile modern sense, the New Testament itself becomes incoherent: Christ is called lord and servant, wisdom that is “made” and power by which all is made, life that dies and yet cannot die. Trinitarian theology was forged precisely to let those paradoxes stand together without sliding into contradiction. It does not silence the sources; it harmonizes them. To treat that harmonization as semantic trickery is to mistake theological exegesis for sophistry and to prefer a brittle literalism over the textured witness the Church has always proclaimed: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one God, blessed for ever.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Two posts, totaling more than 4,300 words, in about an hour.

    Does anyone even read these, anymore?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Arian heretics will stoop to any level to dethrone Jesus. Attacking the deity of Jesus is the one thing that lights them up. This thread is also a good example on how Watchtower teachings are "bible based". When unsaved bible critics pull the metaphor "card", they can get the bible to mean ANYTHING. Symbolism has plagued the church since the days of Philo. Symbolism is the paint brush the devil uses to paint beautiful paradisiac scenes of death.

    I used to quote those Proverbs at the doors to try and diminish the object of the homeowner's faith in Jesus. One day a lady simply asked me, 'what does the "personification of wisdom' have to do with Jesus"? I re-read the Proverbs and sure enough, it said nothing about Jesus. I felt ashamed for harassing the poor lady. Never forgot it.

    Good analysis Aqwsed, as always.

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