Who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the League of Nations to fulfill Revelation 17:8?

by Gilgamesh 6 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Gilgamesh

  I didn't recall this topic being discussed for quite a while, so I am including the first half of an article I posted on another site: ,
  

  Who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the League of Nations to fulfill Revelation 17:8?

  
  

  Summary: The Watchtower explains that the initial beast of Revelation 17:8 is the “League of Nations.” Revelation 17:8 (NWT) says that persons whose names have not been written upon the scroll of life will “wonder admiringly” at this beast. Yet, in 1919 the Watchtower not only “wondered admiringly” at the League of Nations, they went so far as to actually use sentences that contained those literal words:

  • “We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations.”
  • “This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express.”

  (Revelation 17:8)  The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world. [NWT Reference Edition]

  The 2013 Revised NWT changes “will wonder admiringly” and instead uses the term “will be amazed.” I couldn’t help but ‘wonder in amazement’ about whether a certain post discussing this same subject had already come to the attention of the translators. It was a post I had put on beliefnet.com several years prior which made the same point made here, along with some additional information.

  For many decades, the Watchtower has identified the initial beast of Revelation 17:8 as the League of Nations:

  *** w85 10/1 p. 15 par. 9 Peace, Security, and the ‘Image of the Beast’ ***
  9 Our identification of this beast is confirmed by some further details given by the angel: “The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction.” (Revelation 17:8) This has already been fulfilled in part. The second world war effectively killed the League of Nations.

  In various places, the Watch Tower publications have repeatedly reminded readers (over 200 different times) that the clergy of Christendom, both Catholic and Protestant, have promoted the rejection of Christ’s kingdom and even the “worship” of this beast by hailing the League of Nations as the “political expression of God’s Kingdom on earth.” Note:

  *** ka chap. 11 pp. 197-198 pars. 27-28 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” ***
  27 The position taken by the “discreet” virgin class on this issue was unequivocal from the start. In evidence of this, on Sunday afternoon, September 7, 1919, at the Cedar Point convention, President Rutherford gave his public address on “The Hope for Distressed Humanity,” in which he pointed out God’s disapproval of the League of Nations. To quote from the report published in the Sandusky (Ohio) Star-Journal on Monday, September 8, 1919:
  “President Rutherford . . .declared a League of Nations formed by the political and economic forces moved by a desire to better mankind by establishment of peace and plenty would accomplish great good, and then asserted that the Lord’s displeasure is certain to be visited upon the League, however, because the clergy—Catholic and Protestant—claiming to be God’s representatives, have abandoned his plan and endorse the League of Nations, hailing it as a political expression of Christ’s kingdom on earth.—The Watch Tower, under date of October 1, 1919, page 298, column 1.”

  *** ka chap. 13 p. 250 par. 22 Settling Accounts with the Slaves of Today ***
  22 Of course, the sectarian church members of Christendom . . . . took a compromising course with the politicians and militarists of this world. . . . They turned their interest and attention to the proposed League of Nations, which the Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America called “the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth.” (Isaiah 9:6, 7) They tried to increase the number of supporters and worshipers of that man-made international organization for world peace and security.

  Was the Watch Tower’s position on this issue really “unequivocal from the start”? In answering this question note the words that are underlined and highlighted from the February 15, 1919 Watchtower:

  “We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations, formulated undoubtedly by those who have no knowledge of the great plan of God. This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express. For instance, it has been made plain by President Wilson and the advocates of his ideas that the proposed League of Nations is more than merely a league to enforce peace. They would not have us consider it to exclusively from the standpoint of politics or of military relations. It should be considered as fully from the economic and social points of view. The President’s idea seems to be that the League of Nations which he proposes would stand for world service rather than mere world regulation in the military sense, and that the very smallest of nations shall be participants in its every arrangement. In other words, his idea undoubtedly is that the league shall not be established merely for the purpose of promoting peace by threat or coercion; but that its purpose, when put into operation, will be to make all nations of earth one great family, working together for the common benefit in all the avenues of national life. Truly this is idealistic, and approximates in a small way that which God has foretold that he will bring about after this great time of trouble.” — Watch Tower, February 15, 1919, p.51 [Reprints page 6389].

  In other words, this 1919 Watchtower considers the League of Nations to be, essentially, ‘the political expression of God’s kingdom on earth.’ In fact, a careful reading of the article gives at least some evidence that this particular phrase was already known to the writers of this Watchtower article, and this article was intended to show agreement with that idea.

  That might sound surprising coming from the same magazine that has declared itself not to have ever compromised on that particular issue in the way that Catholic and Protestant clergy and their constituents had supposedly done. But the Watchtower took it a bit further, literally admitting their amazement at the wonderful and admirable ideals of the League of Nations.
• 

  Gilgamesh

  As a followup on the above, there is more information about the fallacy of making so much of that "political expression" statement by the FCCC (Federal Council of the Churches of Christ) that was already discussed here several years ago: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/17563/fccc-league-on-nations-un-watchtower-rare-article?size=20&page=1 There were pictures of the original FCCC source material in those posts. The links to the actual source material do not show up any more on that thread (it's 15 years old). The same resource pages can be found here: https://books.google.com/books?id=lEVQAQAAMAAJ

  The book is called: Federal Council Bulletin: A Journal of Religious Co-operation and Inter-church Activities, Volumes 1-3. The quote(s) in question are found on page 12 of Volume 2 (1919), especially at the end of the fourth paragraph under Declarations. (The book starts out with 1918, and the page numbering starts over for 1919 and 1920.) Note that similar sentiments can be found in that book as early as January 1918.

  That thread points out that the most serious problem with the Watch Tower’s claim is that the WTS doesn’t seem to realize or admit that this publication of the Federal Council of Churches of Christ was speaking about what the League “should be” not what it was. They were speaking of an “ideal.” They were not promoting “worship” any more than the Watchtower itself was in the article they published the following month with similar sentiments. Also, this declaration about the proposed League only represented a small number of Protestant churches although it was presented as representing all of Christendom, Protestant and Catholic. The statement itself was evidently an invention of the executive committee of the FCCC.

  I just noticed from another search on "League of Nations" that "sf" (skally) had already posted Carl Jonsson's article for discussion here: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/14143/league-united-nations-prophetic-speculation and the support of the UN (League) in 1919 was also discussed here: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/12890/wt-supported-un-1919-wt by "Messenger". In that thread "Satanus" also drew a parallel to Rutherford's compromising 1933 Declaration (and the letter to Hitler) where the Declaration said:

  
  

  “Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles.”

  
  

  In other words, the German Nazi ideals, while not the equivalent of the kingdom of God, were at least a human, ‘political expression’ of the same principles as the kingdom of God. In the “Letter to Hitler” the same idea:

  
  “To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the [Bible Students], it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.”

  
  

  Doing a bit more reading about the League, I noticed that it really turns out to be very awkward for the WTS (and others religions, too) to make application between the League and the beast of Revelation 17:8. I had never really read about the IPU before (League's predecessor) and its history reminded me even more of how silly the whole prophetic application is.

  
  Whether or not such an organization as the League of Nations actually fits the ideas of Revelation 17:8 is a much more basic question that JWs rarely, if ever, would ask themselves. A good summary of the history of the League of Nations can be found on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations . Note that while the League was formally founded on January 10, 1920, it was being organized and defined from the very beginning of World War I. As of late 1917 and early 1918 the form it would take was directly anticipated with U.S. involvement and promotion by President Woodrow Wilson. Also note that the League basically inherited the organizations and structure of one of the previous attempts to create such an entity, the IPU or Inter-Parliamentary Union, the League’s forerunner. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Parliamentary_Union )

  
  The IPU is of interest from another perspective, too. The Watch Tower publications have made a lot over the idea that the League “died” and came to life again after WWII as the United Nations. The problem is that could be said of a lot of organizations whose primary aim was to promote peace. How astonishing would it be that a generally “pacifist” leaning organization might temporarily disappear during a large war? The IPU was, of course, a relatively neutral and pacifist organization, too, and the book Neutrality in Twentieth Century Europe, p. 298 explains this and adds: “The outbreak of the First World War prevented further action, and during the war most of the IPU’s work was seriously hampered.” (Although effectively replaced by the League of Nations after the war, the IPU resumed full operations and continues to this day.) For that matter, something similar happened to the Watch Tower Society itself because of the same war.

  
  So if it happened to the League’s “predecessor,” then how appropriate is it to say that the world would be amazed that an organization attempting neutrality and peace might disappear for a while?

  
  If others (see Jonsson's article) could predict the demise of the League after failing in its agenda during WWII (just as the IPU had failed to keep peace in WWI) then it really was not astonishing at all, and for this reason the League of Nations does not fit Revelation 17:8.

  
  A more salient point is this: The Bible often represents nations as beasts. It might be true that an international organization could act in a vicious, inhumane, beastly manner, similar to some individual nations. But how logical is it to depict an organization that tries to promote political neutrality, peace and goodwill as a beast? When the war came, did anyone expect the League of Nations to put up a vicious, beastly fight to stay in power? Was there really something so astonishing and amazing about its temporary disappearance and reappearance when the war was over? If it reappeared as the United Nations, has that entity really shown itself to be a vicious beast?

  
  

  P.S. It's also "funny" that the WTS likes to use the term "worship" for how Christendom (especially) is supposedly blasphemously treating this beast as the only hope for peace. Yet it's somehow inappropriate for Christians to use the same term "worship" for how they view Jesus.
• 

  OrphanCrow

  gilgamesh: I had never really read about the IPU before (League's predecessor) and its history reminded me even more of how silly the whole prophetic application is.

  For some more background on the League of Nations, it roots can actually be traced back to the Hague Convention of 1899.

  The peace conference was proposed on 24 August 1898 by Russian Tsar Nicholas II.[8] Nicholas and Count Mikhail Nikolayevich Muravyov, his foreign minister, were instrumental in initiating the conference. The conference opened on 18 May 1899, the Tsar's birthday. The treaties, declarations, and final act of the conference were signed on 29 July of that year, and they entered into force on 4 September 1900.

  What is interesting about Tsar Nicholas' motivations in establishing an international court, is that the Baha'i's claim input into the start of that idea. Before Nicholas took power, his father, Alexander III, had a friendship with a Baha'i man. According to Baha'i history, this man influenced Alexander on ideas of international peace and the methods to be followed in order to see that fulfillment (modeled on the Baha'i's "International House of Justice"). When Alexander died prematurely. his son Nicholas took up his father's mission to establish an international court of peace.

  The Baha'i faith is considered to be an apostate sect of Islam. They share many similarities in structure and doctrine to the WTS (and many differences too)

  According to the Baha'i's:

  There have been three attempts in the past to implement Baha'u'llah's plan for a Universal House of Justice.
  Czar Nicholas II of Russia made the first attempt in the late 1800's. He had many of Baha'u'llah's principle writings translated into Russian and had studied the Plan for the UHJ. At the first Hague Peace Conference in 1899, the Czar proposed the idea to have a World Court represented by all of the nations to solve the difficult problems of the world. Those present thought it was a wonderful idea and they eulogized the Czar so much that it all went to his head and he failed to proclaim Baha'u'llah, the Author of this wondrous Plan. Because he failed to do this, the World Court became very secular and we had WWI.
  American President Woodrow Wilson made the next attempt. Wilson's daughter was a Baha'i, and many of Baha'u'llah's works outlining the UHJ were in the White House library, which he had studied. He decided to try to form the League of Nations, but couldn't get the U.S. to join, so all of the nations weren't represented, and again Baha'u'llah was not proclaimed, so this body also became very secular and didn't solve anything and we had WWII.
  Finally we come to Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR). He and his wife, Eleanor, were secretly Baha'is. They attended fireside classes for three years in the home of a Baha'i physician in Washington DC. FDR became very deepened in the Faith and wanted to form the United Nations. The atom bomb was very near to being perfected at that time. His plan was to call the heads of state to the Nevada proving ground, explode a nuclear device, proclaim Baha'u'llah, and give this bomb to the UN so that all of the nations could simultaneously disarm. Well, Roosevelt died before he had the chance to do this, and when Harry Truman stepped into office, and they asked him if he'd follow through with FDR's plan, he said, "Hell no, we've got the bomb… the other nations can dance to our tune!" So now the UN is completely secular and solves nothing! It is a house of Injustice! ...
• 

  BluesBrother

  The WTS stance on the U N has changed a lot . We were brought up with this typical quote drummed into us :

  Wt 1977 1/15 p44

  Faith no less than that of first-century Christians is shown today by those having implicit confidence in the written Word of God. They saw how the churches of Christendom hailed the League of Nations as “the political expression of the kingdom of God on earth,” and now they see the United Nations being idolized as man’s ‘last hope of peace

  Now they say :

  Wt 2013 7/15 pp3-8

  What will signal the start of the great tribulation? Jesus foretold: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Matt. 24:15, 16) In the first fulfillment, the “standing in a holy place” occurred in 66 C.E. when the Roman army (“the disgustingthing”) attacked Jerusalem and its temple (a place holy in the eyes of the Jews). In the larger fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The same attack is described atRevelation 17:16-18. That event will be the beginning of the great tribulation.

  
  
• 

  Gilgamesh

  OrphanCrow, That's quite interesting about the Baha'i connection to peace organizations. Might be unrelated but it reminded me of how Winston Churchill proposed and promoted one of the major predecessors ot the current European Union immediately after WWII (just after he was voted out of office). As a younger man Churchill had expressed his desire to convert to Islam and his family talked him out of it..
• 

  Diogenesister

  Changing the OP, but out of interest.....

  but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world. [NWT Reference Edition]

  Now if that's not predestination I don't know what is.
  
  
• 

  Gilgamesh

  BluesBrother,

  There's a lot less of the old "bombastic" style that I remember from prior years. But the same idea is still there about "worship" and "idolizing" and now, treating the UN as "holy." I have never heard any religious people speak of the UN as "holy" although I agree that it's often considered the best practical hope for peace under many political circumstances.Besides JWs, there are a also lot of other religious people who have conspiracy theories about what the UN will do.

  I'm still surprised at how "sure" the Watchtower writes about future prophecy that they claim will be fulfilled this side of Armageddon. It still shows up in that 2013 Watchtower you quoted in the place you highlighted. The year before, in 2012, the June 15 issue carried the article: "Jehovah Reveals What Must Shortly Take Place." That had the same sureness:

  *** w12 6/15 pp. 17-18 pars. 16-19 Jehovah Reveals What “Must Shortly Take Place” ***
  16 However, during the Lord’s day, Babylon the Great has seen the waters, the people who support her, dry up dramatically. (Rev. 16:12; 17:15) For example, when the image of the beast first appeared, the churches of Christendom—an influential part of Babylon the Great—dominated the Western world. Today, the churches and their ministers have lost the respect and support of the masses. In fact, many people believe that religion contributes to or causes conflict. An increasingly vocal and militant group of Western intellectuals is calling for the end of religion’s influence on society.
  17 False religion, however, will not just fade away. The harlot will remain a potent force, attempting to bend kings to her will until God plants an idea in the hearts of those in power. (Read Revelation 17:16, 17.) Soon Jehovah will cause the political elements of Satan’s system, as represented by the United Nations, to attack false religion. They will destroy her influence and devastate her riches. Such an event may have seemed unlikely just decades ago. Today, the harlot teeters on the back of the scarlet-colored beast. Even so, she will not slip slowly from her seat. Her tumble will be sudden and violent.—Rev. 18:7, 8, 15-19.
  THE BEASTS COME TO THEIR END
  18 After false religion is destroyed, the wild beast, Satan’s earthly political setup, will be goaded into an attack on God’s Kingdom. Unable to reach into heaven, the kings of the earth will vent their rage on those on earth who support God’s Kingdom. The result is inevitable. (Rev. 16:13-16; 17:12-14) Daniel describes one aspect of the final battle. (Read Daniel 2:44.) The wild beast mentioned at Revelation 13:1, its image, and the two-horned wild beast will be destroyed.
  19 We are living in the days of the seventh head. No more heads will appear on this beast before it is annihilated. The Anglo-American World Power will be the dominant world power when false religion is eradicated. The prophecies of Daniel and John have been fulfilled to the smallest detail.

  The idea that this interpretation is correct (because the prophecies have been fulfilled to the smallest detail) is ridiculous. It's extremely easy to find solutions to Revelation's beasts that are just as likely as the UN solution. There are multiple problems with these solutions. (Not the least of which is the idea that Revelation is basically a reworking of Daniel, except that Daniel said the scrolls would be locked up until the time of the end, and then Revelation says that the time of the end is here and now the scrolls are being opened. It's very odd that Daniel is written between 200 to 600 years before Revelation, and when Revelation announces that the "time is finally at hand" everyone says that this is for 2,000 years after Revelation.)
  Reminds me of the explanation of the 1,260 days of Revelation which was supposedly "miraculously" accurate with respect to the early history of the WTS/JWs, yet, it doesn't even match up to 1,260 days no matter how much they play with it. Here's an example. (I like the explanation that the Revelation 12:6,14 1,260 days is basically meaningless and unrelated; it was only there to prove that 3.5 times is 1,260 days!):
  

  *** w51 7/1 pp. 409-410 ‘Time, Times and Half a Time’ ***
  TRIALS DURING THE 1,260 DAYS
  3 Prior to 1914 the faithful servants had been proclaiming the “end of the Gentile times” in that year. Now let us see what happened during these 1,260 days. These days of Daniel are not to be confused with Revelation 12:6, 14, which reads: “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a period and periods and a half a period of time away from the face of the serpent.” (NW) Here these verses merely serve to show that ‘a time, times and half a time’ equals 1,260 literal days. Whereas those days of Revelation 12:6, 14 began after Satan was cast out of heaven, the 1,260 days of Daniel 12:7 began at the end of the Gentile times, about October 1, 1914.
  4 The facts pertaining to Jehovah’s people fit so miraculously that there cannot be any doubt about the fulfillment of this prophecy. Jehovah’s “holy people” were to be scattered and shattered by the enemy for three and a half “times”, or 1,260 days, following which time period the enemy’s power over them would end or be over. (Matt. 24:9-12, NW) Right on time prophecy was fulfilled. The 1,260 days would commence when the Gentile times ended, about October 1, 1914, and would therefore terminate about April 1, 1918, after which the enemy’s power would be broken. This indicates that by then Satan the Devil had been cast down from heaven and Christ Jesus came to the temple of God for judgment work. This was not altered by the fierce persecution which broke out at that time, for early in February, 1918, many of Jehovah’s people in Canada were seized and thrown into prison. That same month the enemies of the truth took away books and private papers from the head office of the Society at Brooklyn. On the 7th of May warrants were served for the arrest of officers of the Society, and on the 15th of May they appeared in court. They were indicted, convicted and sentenced to long terms of imprisonment, and on June 20, 1918, were confined to prison.

  How miraculous is it that?!?! They needed to find an event on April 1, 1918 and they found something in early February and a couple of events in May, with the most startling event starting on June 20. But, no one seemed to notice that the trials were to take place before the end of the 1,260 days, and the major trials for the WTS started after they were over, according to their own timeline. Satan seemed to have more power over them exactly at the time he was supposed to have less, according to the earlier paragraphs.

  I expect that someday soon they will just have to admit that all this was a guess, and most of it was a guess based on the fact that everything was supposed to be over within just a few years of all that stuff that happened prior to 1925. All their guesses were based on being completely Anglo-centric, and copying off other interpreters who also just as Anglo-centric.