A Fireside chat with the Pastor

by refiners fire 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Pastor Russell says:

    “Odium attaches to the study of prophetic time by reason of past misapplications of it by "Second Adventists" and others, and the consequent failures to realize the events expected to occur at stated times.”

    P astor Russell then goes on to explain the consequences of these recurring predictive failures.

    “The scorn of the world grew more and more intense, as time after time the Adventists foretold a crush of worlds, and time after time their predictions failed--until now the very mention of prophetic time is received very generally with an incredulous smile, or with open contempt.”

    Well theres nothing so very amazing about that Mr Russell. If I were to continually state that Planet X will smash into the earth, shifting to a new date every time the old one expired, I would expect to be ridiculed and might learn to keep my mouth shut. Actually,the fact that some people merely ‘smile incredulously’ is a credit to their restraint rather than evidence of their ‘wickedness’.

    “We see, however, that even this has been a part of God's plan to obscure the subject to all but the class for whom it was intended, by permitting contempt and ridicule to attach to it, thus hindering the worldly-wise and prudent from apprehending it.”

    So, you say that God encourages prophetic falsehood by his prophet so as to make the godless scoff and mock? Well it’s a tactic that WORKS! You say that if Gods prophet says “such and such will happen on such and such day” and it does not happen that this is only so the “worldly will think it DIDN’T happen? Well I hope God feels duly justified in ‘burning’ the scoffers.

    “Prophetic time was given, not to alarm the world--nor for the world in any sense--but to enlighten, strengthen, comfort, encourage and guide the Church in the end of the age. It was not yet time for a clearer unfolding. And yet it was time for the stirring up of the saints to look for the Lord's appearing.”

    So, it is for the edification and excitement of the Church into a state of expectation and hope that false prophecy is given? So why preach the message to the unconverted? But what if the faithful sell their houses and quit their jobs? What is that, evidence of their faith? Mr Russell, Is God finally convinced of their loyalty under ‘test’ when they quit their livelihoods for the church?

    “Therefore it is written, "None of the wicked shall understand, but the wise only."

    I must be one of the wicked I think. But what have you to say about our Adventist friends, Mr Russell?

    “The failure of the predictions of Adventists, who attempted to fix a time for the burning of the world has been more in regard to the character of the events expected than in the time. Like the Jews, they erred by looking for the wrong thing at the right time.”

    You mean like you looked for the wrong thing in 1914 when you expected the end of the world? But in ‘fact’ Christ was enthroned that year, yet you thought he returned in 1874? Is that the kind of ‘wrong thing’ at the ‘right time’ you are referring to?

    “The Advent people, laboring under the difficulty of expecting a literal burning of the earth, attempted to force all the prophetic periods to one common day of termination-- a twenty-four hour day at that--and thus they did violence to some prophecies to make them fit and end with others….It will be noticed by those at all familiar with the calculations usually made by "Second Adventists" and others, relative to the prophetic periods, etc., that this method of dealing with these subjects is very different from theirs. They usually attempt to make all prophecies end at some one date.”

    So, mister Russell didn’t you make all your prophetic periods end at one time just like they did? Does it really make a difference, as you claim, that you are making your multiple time proofs terminate at a specific YEAR rather than a specific DAY? What is the difference between them if the events still do not occur. Time will tell I guess...

    “The Adventists attempts to apply prophecy to their false expectations often lead to twisting, stretching or whittling, according to the necessities of the case, in the endeavor to get all the prophecies to terminate at some one date. We and they know that some of the prophecies they have used cannot be stretched into the future, but are in the past, and are now abandoned by them.”

    Didn’t you stretch your own dates to carry them over into 1915 once nothing occurred in 1914?

    “On the contrary, the prophecies here presented, and those yet to be considered, are unstrained, and without twisting or whittling. We simply present them as we find them in God's Word; and, having correct expectations from God's great "Plan of the Ages," it is easy for those seeing it clearly to note how the various prophetic chains fit to it and measure it…..The "Gentile Times" prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of A.D. 1915; and the parallelism shows that this period corresponds exactly with the year A.D. 70, which witnessed the completion of the downfall of the Jewish polity… Remember that the forty years' Jewish harvest ended October, A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of "Christendom," so-called, must be expected to immediately follow.”

    But mister Russell, aren’t these multiple lines of prophetic proof terminating at a common date? The same lines of proof , bar one, that your Adventist friends used? Havent these ‘proofs’ now been abandoned by your church? How do you condemn the Adventists for that you do yourself? How do you sleep at night Mr Russell when you say things like:

    “Are these time-correspondencies mere accidents, or are they of the same divine ordering which we have seen arranged the other affairs of the fleshly house as shadows of the realities of this dispensation? No, they are not accidental”.

    Mister Russell, Wasn’t your infallible mathematics twisted and contorted again, after 1915 to stretch into 1918? Into 1921? Regrettably mister Russell you, like Mr Miller, thought you were the final link in the chain of hope but you have been disappointed. Mr Russell….did you DIE of DISAPPOINTMENT ?

    Friends. Can TRUTH be birthed out of the womb of FUNDAMENTAL ERROR ?

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    I'm sure no one would dispute your overall point, RF! But just allow me a couple of words in defense of the Pastor. His position, no matter how wacked out, was not quite as intellectually incoherent as you make it out to be.

    Well I hope God feels duly justified in ‘burning’ the scoffers.

    Unlike the modern JWs, Russell didn't believe that all the world would be destroyed at Armageddon. He believed that it would be a time of trouble that would result in most of the world converting and being saved.

    So why preach the message to the unconverted?

    Russell didn't. His efforts were directed exclusively at white, middle-class Protestants, those whom he believed most likely to actually form part of "the church."

    IMHO, your other criticisms are spot on. Russell's bad habit of date-setting still lingers in the WTS. Unfortunately, his better doctrines--such as those of universal salvation--have been long cast aside.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Euphamism. I agree with ya. I was a bit floored by The pastors Universal leanings when I first read them.

    CG.

    Gee, this thread has 65 hits. I know 28 of them are mine reexamining my handywork and another 20 are Euphamism reexamining HIS handywork, so that means a whole 17 other people have clicked this thread. That is amazing indeed.I wonder if anyone read the first post? People are terribly lazy, mentally I mean, thats why they JOINED the CULT in the FIRST PLACE.

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    ROFL! We've gotta snag AlanF into this thread... I'm sure he would have something to add.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Euph.

    I really must ask you. Did you accept what Ray Franz wrote in his books as factually accurate? I mean his quotes from passages of old WTs about 1925 etc. Myself, I didnt accept it until I cross referenced what he claimed against original publications. I would never have accepted internet sources. Too easy to fabricate. What about you ??

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    By the time I read CoC, I was pretty favorably disposed towards Ray Franz. Back least year, at the time that I was shoving my doubts into the back of my mind, I'd read some of the WT articles that he wrote in the 70's, and they seemed like some of the most balanced, scriptural, and well-argued stuff I'd ever read in the WT. I asked myself: "how could someone like this have gone apostate?" As I read the first few chapters of CoC, I could really identify with Franz and his feelings. It was a gut reaction, but I trusted him, I believed him.

    As far as Internet sources... I'd seen Kent's site with actual scans of WT letters. I knew that scans could be doctored, but a lot of the stuff matched tidbits that I'd heard my elder friends hint about. I'd also browsed through some of Rutherford's old books, and read old Watchtowers on the WTLib CD-ROM. So while I didn't know if every quote I read on the 'net was accurate, it did seem to fit with what I knew about the WTS teachings at the time.

    Basically, I never believed that every 'apostate' was utterly immoral and deceitful. Hateful, dishonest, bitter, manipulative... yes. I believed that quotes were taken out of context, that mountains were made out of molehills, etc. But I had enough trust in their inherent ethics to believe that they wouldn't stoop to fabricating quotes out of thin air.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Awww. Here's a modest little smooch for Refiner's Fire from a pretty little head in Canada. I even read most of your post. It is the way of the board, I think. We have lots of creative people here, and they would rather contribute than read.

    It would be a good thing to crumble this clay foundation, and lay the WTS down with the rest of Christendom's churches. The society would be so much more tolerable if they would admit to at least as much failing as the rest of us.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    It's fun to compare wt foundational material such as this, and how dubs view it, w catholic foundational material, such as augustine. Augustine was against dates and such. He saw the world slowly being converted over a long period of time. People, including catholics are still reading augustine. Dubs are forbidden spending time on russel's writings. Yet, his writings are supposed to have so impressed the new world king, jesus, that he appointed russel and his followers as his vice gerants.

    SS

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