I Couldn't Take Heaven Away...

by OHappyDay 3 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  OHappyDay

  I have a real problem when I meet people who are sure they are going to heaven. The problem being that I have no authority to talk them out of it. According to the New Testament, only "the spirit" can determine who goes to heaven, not me nor any organization of men.

  We say that only 144,000 go to heaven, but the Bible does not say that. Not even in the two verses in Revelation that mention the 144,000. Those verses nowhere say, 'these are the only ones going to heaven.' That is an interpretation Witnesses make. But I couldn't take heaven away from anyone, merely based on an assumption.

  Nor are we in any position to say who the 144,000 are. Only God knows that. He is under no more obligation to accept our "anointed" than He is to accept anyone else's "anointed." If Christendom's millions are not anointed, what proof do we have that ours are?

  This whole teaching of only 144,000 going to heaven is one of our weakest links. It cannot be proven by the Scriptures.
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  mizpah

  One has to understand the evolution of the teaching of the Watchtower Society to appreciate its current belief that only 144,000 are going to heaven. Russell taught that the "great multitude" described in Revelation was also a secondary heavenly group. In his day, all believers were going to heaven. Of course, Russell belived in the imminent coming of God's Kingdom probably by 1914 and did not foresee the large increase of members in the organization. Many of the old Watchtowers dealt with the closing of the calling of the annointed and spent a lot of time discussing dates when the closing occurred.

  Rutherford revamped most of Russell's teachings including that of the "great multitude." He came up with the doctrine that the "great crowd" was an earthly group. The new converts were told that they belonged to this group. Thus, he tried to end the questions and controversies that resulted when all felt they had a heavenly reward.

  In more recent times, many younger members began to feel that they were of "the annointed" and had a "heavenly hope." This put the Watchtower Society in an embarrassing position since it taught that only when an annointed member became unfaithful would God select another one. Could it be possible that so many of the old annointed were becoming unfaithful? So the Watchtower leadership has tried to downplay this awkward situation. But the reported numbers of "the annointed" has remained rather steady over the past few years.

  It has always been difficult to understand how the Watchtower can hold to the literalness of the number of 144,000 when it insist that its description (virgins, tribes of Israel) is symbolic. And it is to be noted that the "great multitude" is seen "before the throne of God and in front of the lamb"...and serves him "day and night in his temple."
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  BluesBrother

  Stick around Sunshine and you may get some replies that that show the folly of the 144K doctrine.

  Have you tried the www.freeminds. site? I am sure it would have some useful information

  Try working out the maths, Taking an estimate of the modern day partakers , using the Proclaimers book, allowing for a trickle throughout the centuries, the number of 1st Cent Christians would have had to be ridiculously small, in order for them all to be accommodated withim 144K
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  Myxomatosis

  Hi happyday,
  
  Nice to meet you then, are you new to the forum as well?
  
  <<<I have a real problem when I meet people who are sure they are going to heaven. The problem being that I have no authority to talk them out of it. According to the New Testament, only "the spirit" can determine who goes to heaven, not me nor any organization of men.>>>>
  
  I have to say that when I started reading about the beliefs the WT promoted, this was nearly the most shocking thing I read, (besides,,well, everything else) because in the New Testament, you are PROMISED repeatedly that when you have FAITH in Christ you KNOW that you are going to Heaven. Saved by the Grace of G-d. That is the only test for 'righteousness' in the Bible,,,is Christ in you?
  
  <<<<We say that only 144,000 go to heaven, but the Bible does not say that. Not even in the two verses in Revelation that mention the 144,000. Those verses nowhere say, 'these are the only ones going to heaven.'>>>
  
  It also says that they will be VIRGINS (out of Israel,,,not 'spiritual Israel' but from the Jewish people themselves) and that they are 'blameless, no lie was found in their mouth'....does this describe the anointed of the WT? (well, possibly the virgin bit...) having the name of G-d and His Son on their forehead.
  
  Anyways, since it is pertinent to use hermeneutics with Biblical interpretation, and since this verse does not LIMIT whatsoever those who will be in Heaven to 144k, then you look at the rest of the New Testament and discover that it says that all who have faith in Christ will go to Heaven, then it makes this an interprative impossibility. It is a purely isolated eisogetical rationalization.
  
  btw, since this verse would contradict so many other passages if it were limiting the #, then it is something else. What most people interpret it as is that DURING the great tribulation, these 144k are again, the male Jewish virgins who are sealed and preach DURING the GT.
  
  <<<That is an interpretation Witnesses make. But I couldn't take heaven away from anyone, merely based on an assumption.>>>
  
  You're not taking Heaven away from anyone, to change this would be GIVING the truth to them that if their faith was in Christ they ARE going to Heaven, whether they think so or not, if they believe in the one G-d sent, their spirit will be in Heaven when they die. 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise' Jesus said this as you know to the theif on the cross.
  
  It's not only an assumption, it's absolutely false and disturbing. Especially when you read about the fact that the people proclaim themselves to be anointed,,,huh? So that means that G-d Himself anointed you and then let you know about it by Fed-Ex or something? It also plays into the organization's 'you have to be part of this organization' because they are the only one's teaching that. Soooo...
  
  <<<Nor are we in any position to say who the 144,000 are. Only God knows that. He is under no more obligation to accept our "anointed" than He is to accept anyone else's "anointed." If Christendom's millions are not anointed, what proof do we have that ours are?>>>
  
  Very true. First off, the JW's are particular in this doctrine, although, there are other cultish teachings elsewhere that are similar. I don't understand the 'anointed' because it is not about BEING anointed, it is about having faith in Christ, by that you're iniquities are covered by His blood, you are healed of your wounds. :)
  
  <<<This whole teaching of only 144,000 going to heaven is one of our weakest links. It cannot be proven by the Scriptures.>>>
  
  one of OUR? are you a practicing Witness then?
  
  Indeed it is.
  
  None of their doctrines are Biblical. They're simply Russical.
  If you ARE a practicing witness, then it's good you're here :)
  
  
  love
  
  Myxomatosis
  
  *phew for a minute there, I lost myself*