Is false hope better than none?

by GinnyTosken 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Between sips of McGinty's Cerebral Tonic for Clear Thinkers, I have been reading a book by Martin Seligman called Learned Optimism.

    Seligman began by researching learned helplessness. He describes one of his early experiments:

    In early January of 1965, we exposed the first dog to shock from which it could escape and the second dog to identical shocks from which it could not escape. The third dog was left alone. The next day, we took the dogs to the shuttlebox and gave all three shocks they could easily escape by hopping over the low barrier dividing one side of the box from the other.

    Within seconds the dog that had been taught to control shocks discovered that he could jump over the barrier and escape. The dog that earlier had received no shocks discovered the same thing, also in a matter of seconds. But the dog that had found that nothing it did mattered made no effort to escape, even though it could easily see over the low barrier to the shockless zone of the shuttlebox. Pathetically, it soon gave up and lay down, though it was regularly shocked by the box. It never found out that the shock could be escaped merely by jumping to the other side.

    Donald Hiroto, a graduate student at Oregon State University, designed experiments with people parallel to those done with dogs. Some groups were given control over loud noise in a room. Other groups could do nothing to stop the noise. A third group was subjected to no noise at all.

    The results were the same. People also learn helplessness.

    Hiroto also found that one out of every three people whom he had tried to make helpless did not succumb. One out of three animals, too, did not become helpless following inescapable shock. Why? Who never gives up?

    The researchers discovered that much depends on how we think about the causes of the misfortunes, small and large, that befall us. Some people, the ones who give up easily, habitually think: "It's me, it's going to last forever, it's going to undermine everything I do." Those who resist giving in to misfortune think, "It was just circumstances, it's going away quickly anyway, and besides, there's much more in life." Thus began Seligman's fascination with the differences between optimists and pessimists.

    The researchers also discovered that the symptoms of learned helplessness are nearly identical to depression. They believe that the cause of both is the same: the belief that your actions will be futile.

    The arguments for optimism are strong:

    • Optimists consistently perform better at school and at work.
    • Optimists catch fewer infectious diseases than pessimists do.
    • Our immune systems may work better when we are optimistic.
    • Evidence suggests that optimists live longer than pessimists.

    I pondered this in terms of my JW experience. In many ways, it was much easier to be an optimist as a JW. If I did something bad, I could blame it on sin, the weakness of the flesh, or the temptations of this world and Satan. If something bad happened to me, it was likely persecution. None of this was certainly going to last forever because the end was coming soon. Weakness would not undermine everything I did if I only had faith and relied on Jehovah. My actions were not futile. I was part of a dramatic moment in human history, part of a large army!

    I contrast this with how I felt when I discovered that much of what I believed as a JW was false. It was daunting to consider that perhaps lasting historical change requires sustained effort and dedication over many generations, not just one. Perhaps God would not step in and neatly tidy things up soon. Perhaps I am just one puny little human being in an enormous universe. Perhaps my existence is futile.

    Seligman writes about religion and optimism:

    It is often thought that religion produces hope and allows troubled people to better face the trials of this world. Organized religion provides a belief that there is more good to life than meets the eye. Failures of individuals are buffered by belief in being part of a much larger whole: Buffering takes place whether the hope is as concrete as a golden afterlife or as abstract as being part of God's plan or just part of the continuity of evolution. Findings on depression bear this out. Conducting studies in the Outer Hebrides, George Brown, the London sociologist who has made a life's work out of interviewing depressed housewives, has shown that staunch churchgoers experience less depression than nonchurchgoers.

    The flip side? There is considerable evidence that depressed people, though sadder, are wiser. Seligman cites specific experiments and then says:

    These have been the consistent findings over the last decade. Depressed people--most of whom turn out to be pessimists--accurately judge how much control they have. Nondepressed people--optimists, for the most part--believe they have much more control over things than they actually do, particularly when they are helpless and have no control at all.

    Does honesty preclude kindness? Does kindness preclude honesty? Should I share information with optimistic JWs? What if the truth deeply depresses them?

    Ginny

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Hi Ginny

    Been sipping a bit of McGinty's Cerebral Tonic for Clear Thinkers myself lately, too.

    1) If a JW, as a pessimist, is also somehow thereby more realistic ("Depressed people--most of whom turn out to be pessimists--accurately judge how much control they have."), then honestly presenting even more "reality" to them will do no harm, as they are supposedly already in the "realistic" mindset.

    2) If a JW, as an optimist, is also somehow more capable (your list of how optimists fare "better" in life), then presenting "reality" to them will also do no harm, as they are supposedly more "capable" of handling it.

    So, imo:

    Does honesty preclude kindness?

    This speaks to the manner of delivery. I would say, be kind, but be honest.

    Does kindness preclude honesty?

    If my two descriptions above hold any water, then, no, kindness does not preclude honesty.

    Should I share information with optimistic JWs? What if the truth deeply depresses them?

    No harm done...worst case, it turns them into pessimists, and they somehow thereby become realists.

    Craig

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    I contrast this with how I felt when I discovered that much of what I believed as a JW was false. It was daunting to consider that perhaps lasting historical change requires sustained effort and dedication over many generations, not just one. Perhaps God would not step in and neatly tidy things up soon. Perhaps I am just one puny little human being in an enormous universe. Perhaps my existence is futile.

    Yeah baby!

    Not sure exactly why, but after the futility of living life as a JW, all of the above seemed quite positive! Smack my ass and call me Jesus, but I still tend to think the truth will set you free.

  • donkey
    donkey

    From my own reading and thinking I see much evidence of evolution and zero to support God. Over the past year I have been keenly interested in evoltuional psychology as it seems to hold many of the keys as to why people actually need to believe in God,

    That being said I will try to distill my thoughts as simply as possible here:

    As humans our primary function is survival-centric - self preservation is our purpose above all other. Our psyche is also centered to survival and as such fear and hope are dominant to meet that end. Without hope meaning/perceived life-purpose is generally considered lost and without it humans tend to revert back to primitive instincts and behaviors.

    I have no hope - and I well know the void I have inside me and how painful it is when I think about that void so I avoid thinking about it. On the otherhand I also despise ALL religion and what it stands for (many play the mental-masturbation game and say they are spiritual vs religious...a kind of self denial - but so be it) and I personally hope that the WTBS is correct in their predictions about religion being destroyed. But on the flipside I understand how key HOPE is to the survival of our species and if their is one thing religion does well it gives people hope (yes the placebo effect works well doesn't it?) so I just don't see this happening and if I am to be realistic I should not want this to happen either and should sacrifice my ideal of a world without religion for a world where hope still lives.

    I wish I still had hope - perhaps then my view of life and the world would be different.

    Jack

  • think41self
    think41self

    Hi Ginny, nice to see you again....with or without your "clear thinking tonic".

    Fascinating post, thank you for sharing it. I believe I will just go get that book by Seligman, I'd like to read more. As a life-long optimist, I have first hand experience with leaving the borg and how it affected my "rosy" outlook on life.

    For myself, it didn't really shake my optimism. I was so relieved to have the cognitive dissonance resolved, and enjoyed such a feeling of freedom, in my own case that more than compensated for growing up believing I had all the answers to lifes big questions. Now I am ok with not having the answers, though it was a big adjustment.

    To answer your questions:"Does honesty preclude kindness"? No, it doesn't have to.

    "Does kindness preclude honesty"? Sometimes it does, it depends how well you know the person, and what your motives are in desiring to be honest with them.

    "Should I share information with optimistic JW's"? What is your reason for wanting to share this information with them, and do you know them well enough to gauge what their reaction might be? This is ONLY my own personal decision on the matter...but for my family members, such as my mother, who have given their entire lives to this belief system...what right do I have to destroy their faith? Now, if she ever came to me with questions and doubts...that would be a different story.

    "What if the truth deeply depresses them"? See my previous response. I decided to only drop little tidbits of information and see how the person responded. If they had doubts and wanted answers, then that was my permission to go ahead. Some people get more depressed when they leave "the truth". Some people have huge issues in their lives that contributes to depression, and just leaving the borg would not even begin to be therapy enough for them, although it would be a start. So, unless I'm going to be there for them to help them all the way along the path of healing...it's something to think about.

    But hey, to wrap it all up, I read a GREAT quote the other day that I know you'll appreciate Ginny...and anyone who feels the borg robbed them of opportunities in their life.

    "IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO BE WHO YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN" George Eliot

    Tracy....almost always smiling

  • Xander
    Xander
    I pondered this in terms of my JW experience. In many ways, it was much easier to be an optimist as a JW. If I did something bad, I could blame it on sin, the weakness of the flesh, or the temptations of this world and Satan. If something bad happened to me, it was likely persecution. None of this was certainly going to last forever because the end was coming soon. Weakness would not undermine everything I did if I only had faith and relied on Jehovah. My actions were not futile. I was part of a dramatic moment in human history, part of a large army!

    Funny, in that I always read the JW experience as the exact opposite.

    It was a haven for doomsayers and gloom-mongers.

    Your actions WERE futile, because they had no meaning at all. At least, in reality, one human CAN make a difference, but it is well know it will usually not be much. In JWdom, no human makes a difference.

    You can't EARN salvation - no matter how hard you try, it means nothing, god will save you or not based solely on his own mercy.

    Preaching the kingdom isn't anything special - it's an obligation, to be sure, but if you didn't - 'the rocks themselves would cry out'. IE., the very effort you spend everyday putting all your energy into is nothing that god coudn't just will into being if he really needed to.

    Finally, there is all the parts pointing out that nobody makes a difference. Remember the "I planted, but Apollos watered" parts? Drilling into us the idea that no one of us was anything special - it all took a group effort?

    Finally, there is the latest 'new light' that the end will come when it comes, regardless of whether the kingdom news had ACTUALLY been preached to every last person or not. IE., not even working as a group, preaching your heads off will make the end come any sooner or later.

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    I enjoyed reading your thoughtful replies.

    I don't have a ready answer to my own question. I want all the benefits of optimism, but I also want to face the truth, even if it's bleak.

    I thought of my father and other relatives who are still JWs when I read about religion and optimism. When I first discovered that the Watchtower Society was not what it appeared to be, I wanted to proselytize against it as avidly as I once had for it. I saw it as my duty to spread the word and to save others from the pain I had endured as a JW.

    My own viewpoint these days is similar to Tracy's. I believe that the Buddhist saying is true: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." Looking back over my own experience, it took many small steps over nearly a decade before I was ready to face the truth about my religion. How dare I snatch hope away from someone else?

    I also found Xander's comments interesting. While I wrote about the optimistic aspects of being a JW, I found it mostly a depressing experience. Perhaps being a JW is like anything else--it's all about how you explain and interpret the experience in your own head. I wasn't very good at blaming my weaknesses on sin or Satan; I was certain that at core I must be wicked and bound for destruction. By contrast, my grandma, who has been much naughtier than I, feels absolutely assured of her place in paradise and has songbooks poised to save seats for the rest of the family.

    Here is a quotation from the 1995 report, "Cults in France":

    A doctor heard by the Commission, one not very suspect of being kindly disposed towards the cult phenomenon, thus insisted on the complexity of dialectical between supply and demand in this field: "You meet the best and the worst in cults (...). Sometimes, by means of cults, some people find a sense of belonging to a warm and friendly group, others find again a direction for their lives, others still are structured. Among my patients, some entered cults. I would not want for them to come out of there for anything in the world, because the cult is used by them temporarily as a tutor. Of course, that does not legitimize the whole of the phenomenon, but that is to say that there are very positive aspects. If that is not understood, the success of cults will not be better understood. Our contemporaries are not imbeciles. If they are drawn by hundreds of thousands to these movements, it is because they have reasons and especially that they find answers there (...)"

    [bolding mine]

    Ginny

  • NEWWORLDSLACKER
    NEWWORLDSLACKER

    Hi G.T. how are ya ?? Great I hope , its good to hear from you .....hope to talk with you at some point again ......I miss your insights . .....

    NwS

  • teejay
    teejay

    Ginny,

    Interesting questions.

    >>> Does honesty preclude kindness?

    No.

    >>> Does kindness preclude honesty?

    Sometimes. Sometimes not. Needless honesty can be cruel but honesty, per se, doesn't have to be.

    >>> Should I share information with optimistic JWs?

    Depends on your motives and the JW in question. The nature of the information would have to be taken into account, also.

    >>> What if the truth deeply depresses them?

    What is "truth" and why would they become depressed?

    I believe kind is always possible. Honesty is also a good route to take, particularly if it's asked of you. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive but sometimes they are. There are no universal answers to any of your questions with the possible exception that kindness should be the customary course of action.

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