An Important Question for JW's, they can't answer ??? what happened ???

by run dont walk 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • run dont walk
    run dont walk

    for the sake of argument, lets say that Revelation was completed (writing) in 96 AD.

    In fact, their book Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose asserts that "Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive," that Adam's son Abel was "the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses," and that "Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses [sic] too." (pp. 8-9)

    So, after reading the above text, here's my question ..............

    What happened to the Jehovah's Witnesses / International Bible Students from 100 AD to 1870 AD ???

    What is the history ???

    that is over 1,750 YEARS !!!!!!!! Nothing ???

    Where is the history ??? Is there any ???

    Are we to assume NOTHING, and that Jehovah and Jesus took some time off to play golf, and then in 1879 decided "let's try something different and use this Russell guy as our guinea pig."

    Well, to all JW's and anyone else, what is the answer ???

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I asked that once... I was told that there was always someone in the world with the truth... when I asked about how the truth is always getting "brighter" (changing) how could all of those people have had truth, I got an ugly look and was asked if I still believed the JWs were gawds organization.

    Today's truth in tomorrow’s apostasy. Today’s apostasy is yesterday’s truth.

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    Their standard answer would basically be that those years featured an intervening time of great apostasy, and that Russell got true Christianity back on track again after about 1800 yrs of religious "weeds" obscuring the "wheat". And as Elsewhere mentioned, they'll tell you that there were a few in those years who had the "truth" to a good degree, though they never come out and say exactly whom. They do hint at it with articles about groups like the Waldenses and individuals like Tyndale and Wycliffe.

  • mizpah
    mizpah

    An equally interesting point is who made up the "faithful and discreet slave" when Russell was just discerning his "truth?" Was it comprised of those men of the Second Adventist movement that so influenced his thinking and beliefs. (Storrs, Barbour & others...) If so, why did he "run ahead of God's organization" and start his own "independent thinking" organization?

    The fact is that Russell and Rutherford completely ruled over the organization without the consultation of any body of men. Russell himself was "the Governing Body" of his day. Rutherford was able to erase any influence that Russell had over the organization. First, he usurped the position of presidency. (Russell's intention was to give the authority of running the Watchtower over to a committee of men who were serving at Bethel at the time of his death. Did not these same men represent the appointed Governing Body of that era according to Watchtower doctrine?)

    No, the teaching that the Watchtower represents the Governing Body or a "faithful and discreet slave"is,in fact,only a myth created by the Watchtower leadership to insure its own authority over its membership.

  • blondie
    blondie

    The Bible Students put forth this theory:

    The likely messengers to the Church are:

    1. St. Paul to the Church of Ephesus

    2. St. John to the Church of Smyrna

    3. Arius* to the Church of Pergamos

    4. Peter Waldo to the Church of Thyatira

    5. John Wycliffe to the Church of Sardis

    6. Martin Luther to the Church of Philadelphia

    7. Charles Russell* to the Church of Laodicea.

    The dates of these churches are possibly as follows:

    1. Ephesus -- Pentecost (33 A.D.) to about 100

    (death of John)

    2. Smyrna -- 100 to 313 (Edict of Milan)

    3. Pergamos -- 313 to 1161 (ministry of Peter Waldo)

    4. Thyatira -- 1161 to 1371 (excommunication of Wycliffe)

    5. Sardis -- 1371 to 1521 (Diet of Worms)

    6. Philadelphia -- 1521 to 1874 (the 1335 "days" of Daniel 12)

    7. Laodicea -- 1874 to the completion of the church

    http://www.godsplanforall.org/rev_chap5.htm

    A careful scanning of the experiences of the church has convinced many thousands of earnest Bible students that Paul, the apostle, was the messenger to and of the Ephesus stage of the church; St. John, that of the Smyrna period; Arius in Pergamos; that Waldo bore the torch of truth in the Thyatira days; that Wycliffe was the outstanding champion of basic Bible teachings in the time of Sardis; that Martin Luther sounded the call to rally round God's Word in the momentous Philadelphia days, lasting from the Reformation until 1874; and that Charles T. Russell's was the devoted hand that has swept the harp of God during these latter Laodicean hours of trial, testing, and denudation in church and world.

    http://www.food4jws.org/faq/ctr.htm

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Wt doesn't like the answer to your question. Just work backwards from russell. Russell got his stuff from the adventists, who were started by william miller, who was a baptist. Baptists can supply a lineage going back to first century christianity.

    Clipped from the site below is the claimed baptist lineage to the first century. I reversed their order so that it goes from the most recent to the oldest.

    Step IX -- In parts of Europe the Anabaptists were called Mennonites, a name derived from Menno Simon who was converted to the Baptist faith from the Catholics in 1531. Turning from the Catholic priesthood, he drew a great following of Baptists after him, whom his enemies called Mennonites. Those Baptists were the predecessors of the English Baptists.

    Orchard wrote: "It was in 1536, under Menno, that the scattered community of Baptists were formed into a regular body and church order, separate from all Dutch and German Protestants, who at that time had not been formed into one body by any bonds of unity . . . The Mennonite Baptists consider themselves as real successors to the Waldenses, and to be the genuine churches of Christ" (Op. cit., 368).

    From the British Isles, Baptists came to America in the early part of the seventeenth century. There is a clear succession of Baptists from Palestine to America.

    Some other names by which Baptists have been known through the centuries are Cathari, Bogomils, Paterines, Petrobrussians, Henricians, Arnoldists, Berengarians, and Catabaptists.

    Step VIII -- Even though Baptists were called Anabaptists as far back as the second century, because they re-immersed all who came to them from any irregular or alien group, it was in the sixteenth century that their cause was made prominent under that name. It was a great evangelical movement. The genuine Anabaptists were the same people as the Waldenses.

    Step VII -- The appellation of Waldenses was also applied to Baptists from the twelfth century to the Reformation of the sixteenth century. Apostolic in origin, the Waldenses were found in the second century in the Piedmont Valley of Northern Italy. From "Valdenses," meaning valley dwellers, they got their title. By the twelfth century they had grown to be numerous and powerful, spreading over France and into all the countries of Europe. Because of their sterling character and fidelity to the simple gospel faith, the Waldenses suffered dreadful persecutions. Orchard, after saying their views were one with those of the Baptists, declared: "The Waldenses were, in religious sentiments, substantially the same as the Paulicians, Paterines, Puritans, and Albigenses" (Ibid., pages 258, 259).

    Dr. Armitage quoted Mosheim and Limborch as marking the likeness of the Waldenses and the Baptists of the sixteenth century.

    Limborch said, "To speak candidly what I think, of all the modern sects of Christians, the Dutch Baptists most resemble both the Albigenses and Waldenses" (History of the Baptists, by Armitage, page 304).

    The Waldenses were the predecessors of the true line of the Anabaptists of the sixteenth century and the people now called Baptists.

    Step VI -- From the tenth to the middle of the thirteenth century Baptists were called Albigenses, deriving that name from the small city of Albi in Southern France, which became the center for those people. Some historians hold them to be descendants of the Paulicians who came from Armenia to settle in France and Italy. Other historians have found traces of them which show that they had been "in the valleys of France from the earliest ages of Christianity. They were a people of reputable character and were very numerous, numbering eight hundred thousand in the twelfth century" (A Concise History of Baptists, by Orchard, page 188). They taught doctrines now held dear by Baptists,

    Step V -- The name Paulicians was applied to Baptists in the seventh, eighth, and ninth centuries because they earnestly contended for the teachings of the Apostle Paul.

    Dr. John T. Christian declared: "The Paulician churches were of apostolic origin, and were planted in Armenia in the first century" (A History of Baptists, page 49).

    The Paulicians became prominent and powerful in Armenia in the middle of the seventh century. They taught doctrines held by Baptists of today. Brockett said: "The Armenian Paulicianists were clearly Baptists" (Jones' Church History, page 245).

    Step IV -- In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries Baptists were called Donatists. That name originated in A.D. 311. It was taken from a prominent leader, Donatus of North Africa, who both denounced Catholicism and defended the purity of the faith.

    Fuller, an Anglican historian of England, said: "The Anabaptists are the Donatists new dipt."

    Osiander testified: "Our modern Anabaptists are the same as the Donatists of old."

    Bullinger wrote: "The Donatists and the Anabaptists held the same opinion."

    The Montanists, Novatians, and Donatists held the same fundamental beliefs and enjoyed fellowship in places where they met. In all essential respects they were Baptists.

    Step III -- In the third and fourth centuries Baptists were dubbed Novatians, from Novatian who rose against the corruptions of the church at Rome. Fusing with Montanists, the Novatians extended throughout the Roman Empire.

    "The Novatians demanded pure churches which enforced strict discipline, and so were called Puritans. They refused to receive the 'lapsed' back into the churches, and because they held the Catholics corrupt in receiving them, they re-immersed all who came to them from the Catholics. For this reason alone they were called 'Anabaptists,' although they denied that this was rebaptism, holding the first immersion null and void, because it had been received from corrupt churches" (History of the Baptists, by Armitage, page 178).

    Step II -- Baptists were called Montanists in the second century. The name originated in Phrygia from a prominent leader named Montanus who avowed the Christian cause that had spread over Asia Minor and other regions of the Roman world before the close of the first century. "The Montanist churches were Baptist churches" (Church Perpetuity, by Jarrell, page 76). The great Tertullian identified himself with those people.

    Step I -- The Scriptures support the declaration that the Christians of the first century were Baptists. Dr. John Clarke Ridpath (a Methodist), historian of DuPaw University, said: "I should not readily admit that there was a Baptist church as far back as A.D. 100, though without doubt there were Baptists then, as all Christians were then Baptists" (Church Perpetuity, by Jarrell, pages 58, 59).

    http://www.geocities.com/prbryan.geo/jackson/jackson4.htm

    http://members.citynet.net/morton/baptist.htm

    Of course the catholic church can do the same.

    SS

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Blondie and Saint Satan, I applaud you. I am keeping this thread on my all-time favorite list. The grand lineage of the 144,000 always puzzled me. The FDS are so sure they have the anointed count from 1847 on, and silence thunders about the intervening years from Pentecost.

  • ignorance is strength
    ignorance is strength

    I've been thinking and in a way, Jesus prophesied about the Jehovah's Witnesses. The best question that you could ask of the Jehovah's Witnesses is: Are you really preaching what Jesus wanted you to preach? In Luke 21:8 Jesus told us not to follow people who claimed and preached that "the time is near". Jesus didn't want to be a downer and have his followers talk about how armageddon was coming and the only way to be saved was to give your life to an obscure sect and preach for 8/hr a month. NO. He wanted the gospel and his Passion to be preached. This will certainly stump them especially when they point to their "worldwide preaching work" as a mark of the true religion.

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