Home_and_dry,
My heart goes out to you and your dad. He does have something very special though. That is emathy and sympathy for others. He sounds like he is a very loving, caring man.
Someone on another discussion board asked our opinions awhile back ago if Disfellowshipping the way JW elders do it is scriptual. I've copied and pasted my response here for you, just in case you can use any of it if you ever discuss it with your dad. I've included scriptures too. I hope it can help you, even in the least bit. here it is for ya: It's long, so you might want to print it in case you want to just use the scriptures you choos in your discussion with your dad.
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The Watchtower INC. is, and has been for years, feeding this to it's adherents in the form of "spiritual food" regarding how to treat poeople that elders have disfellowshipped:
"Jesus told his apostles, who would later be Christian overseers: "If your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." The wrong involved here was not a mere personal slight but a serious sin, such as fraud or slander. Jesus said that if this step does not resolve the matter and if witnesses are available, the one sinned against should take them along to prove that there was a wrong. Is this the step of last resort? No. "If [the sinner] does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."-Matthew 18:15-17."
So if we are to claim that we are Christians who "follow closely in Jesus' footsteps", we would naturally ask oursselves what Jesus meant by treating another person "as a man of the nations and as a tax collector". Right?
Well, here is what Jesus taught by his ministry and by his teachings concerning how to view and treat tax collectors. How did Jesus treat tax collectors?
Following Him and understanding the illustrations he used to teach in the Bible , we realize the meaning of "Love COVERS a multitude of sins.
Matthew 9:9-12.... Jesus called on tax collectors and sinners and associated with them. It was the Pharisees who disapproved of Jesus' behavior because they did not want people to FOLLOW JESUS, but wanted people to live by THEIR laws. Sinners should be our FIRST PRIORITY as to who to help. Not to hand over to Satan the devil and turn around and call that LOVE.
"9 Next, while passing along from there, Jesus caught sight of a man named Matthew seated at the tax office, and he said to him: "Be my follower." Thereupon he did rise up and follow him. 10 Later, while he was reclining at the table in the house, look! many tax collectors and sinners came and began reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11 But on seeing this the Pharisees began to say to his disciples: "Why is it that YOUR teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?" 12 Hearing [them], he said: "Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. 13 Go, then, and learn what this means, 'I want mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners."
Matthew 10:2-4..... Jesus sent out 12 DISCIPLES OF HIM and gave them all authority to drive out evil spirits, and to heal every sort of disease and sickness. Notice that one of his disciples given authority and sent out was "Matthew the tax collector".
"2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: First, Simon, the one called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the [son] of Zeb'e·dee and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bar·thol'o·mew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the [son] of Al·phae'us, and Thad·dae'us; 4 Simon the Ca·na·nae'an, and Judas Is·car'i·ot, who later betrayed him."
Matthew 11:18,19...... AGAIN, Jesus was a friend to, and ate and drank with tax-collectors and sinners. And look what others said about him for his loving, non judgmental behavior. They said he was gluttonous. But his wisdom in doing so proved righteous!
"18 Correspondingly, John came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, 'He has a demon'; 19 the Son of man did come eating and drinking, still people say, 'Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works."
Matthew 21:28-32.... Tax collectors and harlots who are truthful will make it into the Kingdom before those who speak but not do. I compare that to when I claimed to follow closely in Jesus' footsteps but at the same time not even as much as spoke a greeting to those disfellowshipped ( who I was instructed to treat as a "tax collector", which is equivalent with an antichrist and a deceiver according to the law of the Watchtower INC. ) by elders/fellow sinners in the JW congregation I attended. When Jesus said "follow me", I could no longer claim to follow him but not follow his examples and teachings in the Holy Bible. I believe Jesus and want to do God's will, just as the tax collectors and the harlots did.
"28 "What do YOU think? A man had two children. Going up to the first, he said, 'Child, go work today in the vineyard.' 29 In answer this one said, 'I will, sir,' but did not go out. 30 Approaching the second, he said the same. In reply this one said, 'I will not.' Afterwards he felt regret and went out. 31 Which of the two did the will of [his] father?" They said: "The latter." Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to YOU that the tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of YOU into the kingdom of God. 32 For John came to YOU in a way of righteousness, but YOU did not believe him. However, the tax collectors and the harlots believed him, and YOU, although YOU saw [this], did not feel regret afterwards so as to believe him."
Mark 2:13-17.... AGAIN, Look how Jesus treated tax collectors and sinners and read how the Pharisees viewed Jesus for his show of love and concern to the tax collectors! Would the JW Elders disfellowshipp Jesus for being a sharer in their wicked deeds because he associated with KNOWN sinners if he were in their congregation and not obeying the teachings of the GB MEN of the Watchtower INC publishing company in NY, USA ? Jesus said it is sinners who need HELP. NOT GIVEN TO THE DEVIL AND TREATED AS IF THEY WERE DEAD, OR EVEN EVIL.
"13 Again he went out beside the sea; and all the crowd kept coming to him, and he began to teach them. 14 But as he was passing along, he caught sight of Le'vi the [son] of Al·phae'us sitting at the tax office, and he said to him: "Be my follower." And rising up he followed him. 15 Later he happened to be reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were reclining with Jesus and his disciples, for there were many of them and they began following him. 16 But the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw he was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, began saying to his disciples: "Does he eat with the tax collectors and sinners?" 17 Upon hearing this Jesus said to them: "Those who are strong do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners."
Luke 3: 10-14...... Tax collectors were baptized. And those in the military Jesus taught too.
"10 And the crowds would ask him: "What, then, shall we do?" 11 In reply he would say to them: "Let the man that has two undergarments share with the man that has none, and let him that has things to eat do the same." 12 But even tax collectors came to be baptized, and they said to him: "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13 He said to them: "Do not demand anything more than the tax rate." 14 Also, those in military service would ask him: "What shall we also do?" And he said to them: "Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with YOUR provisions."
Luke 18:9-14..... Jesus gave this example for a REASON. The reason is in verse 9. And if I said to "let someone be to you as a tax collector" to Jesus, what would be his treatment and view of that someone? And how did the Pharisee view the tax collector?
"9 But he spoke this illustration also to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and who considered the rest as nothing: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, 'O God, I thank you I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give the tenth of all things I acquire.' 13 But the tax collector standing at a distance was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward, but kept beating his breast, saying, 'O God, be gracious to me a sinner.' 14 I tell YOU, This man went down to his home proved more righteous than that man; because everyone that exalts himself will be humiliated, but he that humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 19:1-10....... Oh LOOK..It's Zacchaeus the chief tax collector! What did Jesus accomplish by A LOT MORE THAN SPEAKING A GREETING to him and ASSOCIATING with him?
19 And he entered Jer'i·cho and was going through. 2 Now here there was a man called by the name Zac·chae'us; and he was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. 3 Well, he was seeking to see who this Jesus was, but he could not for the crowd, because he was small in size. 4 So he ran ahead to an advance position and climbed a fig-mulberry tree in order to see him, because he was about to go through that way. 5 Now when Jesus got to the place, he looked up and said to him: "Zac·chae'us, hurry and get down, for today I must stay in your house." 6 With that he hurried and got down and with rejoicing he received him as guest. 7 But when they saw [it], they all fell to muttering, saying: "With a man that is a sinner he went in to lodge." 8 But Zac·chae'us stood up and said to the Lord: "Look! The half of my belongings, Lord, I am giving to the poor, and whatever I extorted from anyone by false accusation I am restoring fourfold." 9 At this Jesus said to him: "This day salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Matthew 5:43-47... Do we judge ourselves as being better than tax collectors and people of the nations? Do we exhault ourselves by hating our enemies and looking down on our fellow sinners? Are we so righteous so as to pass judgment upon our fellow sinners by treating them with no compassion or mercy? Are we to greet our "brothers" only? And we DID hear it said BEFORE CHRIST, in Psalms I think it is, to hate our enemies. Then Jesus Christ gave his life and the Law of Christ happened. And everything changed.
"43 YOU heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?"
Matthew 18:15-18...... I've already been taught now, by the teachings and examples of Jesus gave in all the preceding scriptures I quoted from the words of Jesus. Now I understand what he meant when he said to let sinners be to me as a tax collector or a man of the nations. He said and set by example for us to treat them as we would lost sheep. to leave 99 sheep to help the lost 1. And I do understand that verses 18 and 19 tell me that I will be treated the same way on Judgment Day, that I treat tax collectors and people of the nations. I choose to follow in Jesus' footsteps and imitate HIS way, and let tax collectors and fellow sinners be to me, as they were to Jesus. I'm free as a follower of Christ to do that with NO punishment from any INCORPORATING printing business. So that is what will be binding for me on my Judgment Day. I don't think my explanation of following the Watchtower INC's teachings over Jesus' teachings would get me anywhere to nice. And I don't think Jesus would fall for if I tried to explain to him on judgment day that the Watchtower INC's GB said that He appointed them to lord over us and shepherd us And that He was the head of the printing business in NY, USA and that He was teaching us through magazines they publish, to hand fellow sinners over to the devil, instead of showing mercy and love, and treating them as lost sheep. How would we explain that we participate in throwing others away to the Satan? And we don't even know why we throw people to Satan because we are not spoken to as the congregation FIRST? Do we follow blindly and obey men rather than Jesus even though we KNOW from Jesus that we will be judged by our actions come Judgment Day?
"15 "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven."
Luke 7:31-39.... Notice that the Jesus never ever would hand another over to the devil for associating with sinners and tax collectors, threatening them with disfellowshippment as the Watchtower does and judgeing them as guilty of being a sharer in their sins for doing so. Notice again who has a problem with Jesus SHOWING compassion for ALL.
31 "With whom, therefore, shall I compare the men of this generation, and whom are they like? 32 They are like young children sitting in a marketplace and crying out to one another, and who say, 'We played the flute for YOU, but YOU did not dance; we wailed, but YOU did not weep.' 33 Correspondingly, John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, but YOU say, 'He has a demon.' 34 The Son of man has come eating and drinking, but YOU say, 'Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35 All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by all its children." 36 Now a certain one of the Pharisees kept asking him to dine with him. Accordingly he entered into the house of the Pharisee and reclined at the table. 37 And, look! a woman who was known in the city to be a sinner learned that he was reclining at a meal in the house of the Pharisee, and she brought an alabaster case of perfumed oil, 38 and, taking a position behind at his feet, she wept and started to wet his feet with her tears and she would wipe them off with the hair of her head. Also, she tenderly kissed his feet and greased them with the perfumed oil. 39 At the sight the Pharisee that invited him said within himself: "This man, if he were a prophet, would know who and what kind of woman it is that is touching him, that she is a sinner."
Luke 15:1-7....Reading this next scripture, is the Wathtowers practice of disfellowshipping imitating Jesus at all? Is it scriptual to turn around and hand people over to Satan for not applying Matthew 18:17 to sinners that elders who are adherents of the Watchtower INC business to justify handing yet another over to Satan by disfellowshipping them too, for following in Christ's footsteps and not GB of the Watcthower INC's footsteps? Will followers of the Watchtower INC continue to follow the Pharisees footsteps and mutter about JWs who assocaite with KNOWN sinners like Jesus did?
15 Now all the tax collectors and the sinners kept drawing near to him to hear him. 2 Consequently both the Pharisees and the scribes kept muttering, saying: "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." 3 Then he spoke this illustration to them, saying: 4 "What man of YOU with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it he puts it upon his shoulders and rejoices. 6 And when he gets home he calls his friends and his neighbors together, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost.' 7 I tell YOU that thus there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance.
I, when I was a footstep follower of Watchtower Publications went right along before I read the Bible with the laws of the GB and sybolically handed over to Satan EVERYONE who the elders disfellowshipped. I had the SAME ATTITUDE as the Pharisses and would go right along in handing others over to satan, even if I found out that they were handed over to satan because they associated with KNOWN sinners. I now assocaite with KNOWN sinners a Jesus did, not to condone thier sins, but because Jesus showed compassion for ALL sinners and tax collectors and people of the nations.
Those are my scriptual reasons that I refuse to hand ANYONE over to Satan the devil. I refuse to throw others to Satan, nor will I treat them as the antichrist because they don't not bring the teachings of the Watchtower to others.
So what do you all think that Jesus was saying when he said to treat certain people who may be difficult, and won't even listen to the congregation ( if the JW congregations where allowed any input ) as a tax collector and a man of the nation? Did he mean to treat them as if they were dead as the Watchtower INC. teaches? Did he mean to toss them to the devil for as many months as elders see fit? Did even Paul say to do such a thing?
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You might want to ask him why this is hand written in his Elder's manual, at the instruction of the WBTS , who claim that they are a LEGAL intrument that JWs use.... and just ask him to think about it and what would happen if he were ever sued for his actions.:
Six Expressions That Should Not Be Used on S77 and S79 Forms
1. Anything alluding to or naming one of the Society's attorneys
2. Any mention of the Legal Department
3. Any comments referring to direction from the Society
4. Any comments mentioning anyone other than the committee itself as a possible influence in the decision reached
5. Any comments that might suggest to someone with a critical eye that the committee did not reach its decision on its own but, instead, somehow yielded to the influence of an outside party
6. Any comments indicating that the elders mishandled the case or committed any error in the investigation or the judicial committee process.
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And you could always ask him why there is no more charge for parking at assemblies!
I wish you the best with your dad.
peace,
somebody/gwen
