Please get our destruction in the proper order!

by shotgun 5 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    I was wondering if any one on the forum have discussed the end of the Gentile times with the elders or JW relatives to see thier response.

    In particular the sequence of events in Luke....it begins with the sign of Jesus presence....

    1) critical times hard to deal with...signs of last days, wars..etc....

    2) then the great tribulation...

    3) then during the great tribulation the end of the Gentile times which cuts the destruction short so that some are saved.

    How do they respond when its pointed out the WT teaches this sequence which is contrary to the bible

    1) the Gentiles times ended

    2) Critical times hard to deal with..last days..etc

    3) Then the Great Tribulation with nothing to cut it short

    I'm sure there must be a way they dance around it..Even C.T Russell had the order in the proper sequence.... presence, last days, Great trib, End of Gentile times, he was kook but he still had the right order.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Actually the order in Luke is: False Christs, Tribulation, Signs of last days, End of Gentile Times, Signs in Heavens, Presence.

    The order in Matthew is far more convoluted, but still has His arrival at the end of the list, in the clouds, where every eye will see Him.

    Luke always was a little bit more methodical.

    I don't recall the Wt. examination of Luke, and I haven't got my WtLibrary CD handy, but Matthew was discussed in '95, around the same time as the generation change. Look for "tote".

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    Well we know that The Signs in Heavens have already happened:

    *** Watchtower 74 1/15 p. 40 Insight on the News ***What, then, of Jesus’ words about "fearful sights and from heaven great signs"? Do well-informed persons feel fear because of things they now see in the heavens? Yes. What is fear-inspiring is the potential for war that man-made satellites imply. Nearly 50 percent of the satellites launched serve military purposes.

    What is hilarious is that as of 1988 they are STILL teaching this. (Watchtower 10/1/1988 The Sign—Have You Seen It?)

  • raistlin_majere
    raistlin_majere

    How about... They have been predicting the end of the world for 200 years and made dozens of false predictions and their credibility is shot?

  • Swan
    Swan

    Well as soon as they get it figured out, will they let us know? I want to get my hair done for the special occasion!

    Tammy

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Matthew and Mark refer to "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.....(then) darkness........(then) the sign of the son of man.

    So the great tribulation happens before the Messiah arrives. But LOOK AT IT CLOSELY! "Flee from Judea?" Women with children...woo for you? Flee to the mountains? The days cut short or else NO FLESH would be saved?

    That means that a MAJORITY of the flesh would be lost, right? Why would God allow the majority of his "chosen ones" to die in this great tribulation which is supposed to be aimed at the wicked? It makes NO SENSE. And in case he didn't cut it short not a single person would survive? Is this out of control or what?

    So it doesn't work when this "great tribulation", the done prophesied by Daniel is "Armageddon". Besides, then it is over, then the Messiah arrives? So whom?

    Thus the correct understanding of this "great tribulation" is not a global event, but as the Bible indicates, an attack on "Judea" and "Jerusalem". Only in this case, it is the symbolic Judea and Jersualem of the exiled natural Jews. This "great tribulation" therefore is part of that which was prophesied to occur to the Jews just before the Messiah arrives and in which, indeed, had the days not been cut short no flesh of the Jews would have been saved. Thus the "great tribulation" was simply World War II in which the MAJORITY of the Jews were saved and a war that was cut short so that one-third of the Jews survived. Had Hitler won the war was it his intention to kill of all the Jews. Of course.

    So while the WTS has everything out of order because they don't understand the references anyway, the events did happen in the order of Matthew.

    Of note, Luke's references are subtext to what Jesus spoke of and is in contrast but not contradiction to Matthew and Mark. Luke is the only one that deals with the destruction of Jerusalem, for instance, and does not mention the "great tribulation" or Daniel, so Luke should not be considered out of context with Matthew or Mark for the chronology of events. Of critical note, though, Luke does state that "after these things", meaning after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70BCE then the other signs occur. So a close comparison of Luke and integration with Matthew and Mark into the order of things is necessary; Luke is not a completely parallel rendering. The "great tribulation" was not the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE.

    The key order of things were:

    First, nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom, that started the last generation - World War I

    Then the "love of the greater number would cool off" - the greater number is the natural Jews, the lesser number Jehovah's witnesses. This meant anti-Semitism would grow after this leading to the "great tribulation" = the Holocasut.

    Food Shortages = Great Depression

    Pestilence = Spanish Influenza

    "Earthquakes in one place after the ofter" is better translated as "agitations in one place after the other" = meaning social unrest in various places in the world during this period, which led, finally to the "great tribulation" which was World War II.

    "When you see the digusting thing standing in a holy place that causes desolation flee..." The disgusting thing was the white supremacist Nazis who had surrounded the"holy city" which was the largest concentration of the exiled Jewish population by far, Warsaw Poland. Thus Warsaw became atypical "Jerusalem", and Poland atypical "Judea". This was the sign to literally flee to the mountains. Of course, Hitler's guns literally encircled the city of Warsaw as the Roman armies did Jerusalem before.

    After that a great tribulation would occur like none other had occurred before nor would again and unless the days were cut, no flesh would be saved: This was the ensuing Holocaust after WWII began and the horror of extermination of two thirds of the Jews. This was already prophesied in scripture a Zechariah 13. Had Hiter won the war or it continued even a few more years he might have been successful in exterminating all the Jews in Europe. So the days were cut short. A bitter winter and the entry of the Americans into the War cut the war and the Holocaust short.

    Then after that, the "END came" That is, the "end of the gentile times" over Jerusalem and Judea. In 1947 Palestine was returned to the Jews and the gentiles left. Hinging on this was the "good news" being preached worldwide. Thus Nathan Knorr in 1947 staged a worldwide, around the globe lecture tour for witnesses around the world, so by now the witnesses were indeed an international organization. This worldwide speaking event specifically fulfilled the scripture about the "good news" reaching around the globe by this time.

    Then there was to be spiritual darkness....the sun and moon and stars would be darkened. Meaning that the Christian world including JWs would not have a lot of light about what would happen next. This is the "nodding" of the wise and foolish virgins. The second coming was to now happen shrouded in scret, with only the "eagles" understanding.

    Then the Messiah would arrive after that, inspect his house, gather his anointed and then arfter that Babylon the Great would be destroyed followed by Armageddon and then the millennium.

    That's the corrected BASIC chronology of things.

    JC

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