To Yeru -- Re: Romans 10:13

by outnfree 3 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  outnfree

  Hi, Yeru.

  You made the point a while back to Fredhall that Romans 10:13 in the context of Romans 10:9-13 proved that Yahweh = Jesus, because Romans 10:13 quotes Joel who is speaking about Yahweh. This rattled me -- being a monotheist all my life. Could it be true? After some investigation, however, I think not. Here's why, and I'd appreciate feedback from you and anyone else who feels moved to comment:

  Romans 10:9"If your lips confess that Jesus is Lord and if you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead then you will be saved."

  God (the Father) is still "superior" here, in power, at least -- he raises Jesus from the dead and is not dead Himself.

  Verse 10"By believing from the heart you are made righteous; by confessing with your lips you are saved."

  No problem for me in believing or publicly confessing verse 9 to be true.

  Verse 11"When scripture says: those who believe in him will have no cause for shame,"

  The scripture quoted is Isaiah 28:16 which describes "the Lord Yahweh" as laying "in Zion a stone of witness, a precious cornerstone, a foundation stone: The believer shall not stumble" and means to me that Yahweh laid Jesus as the cornerstone (cf. Matthew
  21:42; 1 Peter 2:4-7; Ephesians 2:20).

  So far, so good, as to my mind, Jesus and Yahweh are still separate entities here.

  Verse 12"it [the aforementioned scripture] makes no distinction between Jew and Greek: all belong to the same Lord who is rich enough, however many ask his help."

  When Isa. 28:16 makes the statement that Yahweh is laying a cornerstone/foundation over which the believer shall not stumble, it becomes clear at Romans 10:12 that, whether Jew or Gentile, however many ask Yahweh's help to believe in Jesus-the-cornerstone will belong to Yahweh. In other words, ALL those placing faith in Jesus, from any portion of humanity, will become Yahweh's chosen people (a group no longer limited to Jews only). -- See 1 Peter 2:4-10 this time.

  Verse 13 "for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

  Quotes Joel 2:32 "All who call on the name of Yahweh will be saved, for on Mt. Zion there will be some who have escaped, as Yahweh has said, and in Jerusalem some survivors whom Yahweh will call." (cross-reference Obadiah 17 for the emphasized portion)

  The application being that, among the Jews in Jesus' day, some would turn to Jesus and accept him as Messiah, escape from the works of Law and be called out into the new, better covenant.

  But nonetheless, the "Lord" upon whom the people called in Romans 10:13 would have been the same "Lord" that Jesus himself worshipped:

  Mark 12:29, 30 "Jesus replied, 'This is the first [commandment]: Listen, Israel, the Lord our God is the one Lord, and you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength.'"

  Yes, Jesus himself calls Yahweh of Deut. 6:4-5 "THE one Lord" (emphasis mine).

  (All quotations have been taken from The Jerusalem Bible.)

  Imagine! ME siding with Fredhall!!!!

  outnfree
• 

  terraly

  I'm not sure I see how Jesus=Yahweh would be a problem for a monotheist. If Jesus is Yahweh, then everyone can be quite clear that there is only one God (one Alpha and the Omega, one who should be worshipped, etc). It might present a logical problem for you to see how this could be true, but if Jesus=Yahweh then in fact you escape the polytheism of the Watchtower at John 1:1 where they call Jesus "a god".

  Jesus and Yahweh are still separate entities

  It is making the two separate which leads to potential polytheism.

  I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter. What about the Alpha and Omega passages of Revelation? (a passage the WT has changed their mind about many, many times) What do you think is the correct meaning of John 1:1? And while we're on the subject, since Romans 10:9 says that God raised Jesus from the dead, how do Jesus' words make sense at:
  John 2:19
  Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
  (NIV)

  Oh, and if you will excuse me for using poor logical reasoning for a second, the most powerful argument against what you're saying... Fredhall can't be right about anything, can he?

  Thanks for you answers. It's my experience that arguments about the trinity never get very far, but they're still fun to have from time to time.
• 

  chacha

  King James version says " he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Are you only allowed to read the one translation?
• 

  terraly

  Um, no actually. I mean, Witnesses tend to favor the NWT, but we're mostly ex-JWs or never-been-yet-connected-in-some-way here.

  I generally dislike the dogmatic stance taken by KJV people though.

  Actually outnfree, looking over your comments I'd like to address them exactly: Verse 9 tells us to believe that Jesus is "Lord" (probably Kyrios in the Greek, although I don't have it handy. Paul is guilty of extremely poor writing if the next time he uses Lord it does not refer to Jesus.