Question (and answer): What does it mean to believe in someone?

by schnell 6 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  schnell

  "Do you believe in Jesus?"

  Yes.

  "Do you believe in Jehovah?"

  Yes.

  "Do you believe in the Grand Man of the Universe?"

  Yes.

  "Are all of these things real to you?"

  Sure.

  "Do they exist in the real world, consisting of all possible realms both perceptible and imperceptible to human beings, or did they ever?"

  No.

  I believe in Jesus the same way I believe in Spider-Man and Darth Vader, and I take issue with certain stories that feature any one of them.

  To believe in someone, real or fictional, we simply imagine or perceive some value from them. We like them, or don't like them, but we recognize them when we see them. I believe in my wife because she's an awesome woman who is both tough as nails and gentle as silk. I believe in Jesus because whether or not he ever walked around Judaea 2000 years ago, the archetype of a selfless, egalitarian, reciprocal, charismatic hero is something I really do appreciate.

  In reality, I'm not really moved by a cosmic guilt trip, nor do I believe the world was ever a nice place or supposed to be nice. That's what religions like JWs teach: They teach that the world was at one time nice and supposed to be nice, but now it is not by fault of our ancestor. If we submit, the world will get nice again and we'll get to see it. Thus a demand is created for a religious product, and people buy it because positive emotions and fear mongering are powerful motivation.

  No matter how you swing it, myth is myth and that's what it's good at.

  Oh, and for the same reason, it always bugs me when people say that Jesus referenced Adam and Noah and therefore those were real people... Remember that time Peter Parker had to get the medicine back to Aunt May as she lay dying in a hospital bed and he had to fight off Doc Ock's henchmen? Remember that? Say, I am a real person referencing an old story, therefore it must have happened.

  Get it?

  End.
• 

  scratchme1010

  Oh, and for the same reason, it always bugs me when people say that Jesus referenced Adam and Noah and therefore those were real people... Remember that time Peter Parker had to get the medicine back to Aunt May as she lay dying in a hospital bed and he had to fight off Doc Ock's henchmen? Remember that? Say, I am a real person referencing an old story, therefore it must have happened.

  Get it?

  End.

  Love your post. One thing to consider, though, If I may. Jesus of Nazareth did exist. He was a real person. Jesus the miracle maker, walking on water, resurrecting people, turning water into wine, becoming a king in 1914, and expected to reign for 1000 years, for that one, every single thing you posted applies.
  
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  So I understand that you believe in the Santa-Claus-type of Jesus. For the naive, they can be coaxed into a morality via stories of that Jesus.

  I don't like when older children haven't been taught the truth of how a Santa Claus would be more fair to poor people, so Santa Claus must be their parents. There's a time to grow up and realize you have to do good works for the sake of the good works instead of for the sake of Christmas presents.

  Very few sane adult people continue to believe that Spider Man, Darth Vader, or Santa Claus are real people.
  
  I think the same should be true of Jesus. It's time that mankind stops "believing" in him and grows up.
• 

  schnell

  Of course, I'm being loose with the word "believe" here, and not at all serious.
• 

  David_Jay

  The "belief" issue is almost entirely exclusive to advanced Protestantism (those after Luther) and more especially to movements from the Second Great Awakening. The type of "belief" that schnell admits is a "loose" usage is indeed that.

  Movements from the American Great Awakening eras redefined theological concepts, mostly from a lack in formal and classical education. Groups like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses share an almost identical understanding of "belief," and mistakenly apply this concept to the Great Christian Churches.

  In Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Judaism, and most Protestant churches mere belief is considered unsatisfactory. In Christianity, for instance, James tells Christians that to have faith in God is to do no better than the demons. (James 2:19) Groups like the Mormons and JWs, however mix the terms "faith" and "belief" up so much, that even some ex-adherents of both movements almost never untangle the concepts well enough to understand the vast differences involved. This may explain the high percentage of atheism among existing born-ins from both movements in comparison to those converts who come from other religious groups (existing converts from other faiths generally do not become atheists).

  Whereas JWs and Mormons are constantly having to tell people they do indeed "believe" in Jesus, rarely do they explain they have "faith" in Jesus. JWs also make the mistake of accepting Hebrews 11:1 as a definition of faith, whereas the text is merely speaking of various facets of the concept in relation to the material that follows in that chapter.

  The words used in both Scripture and doctrinal treatise in the classical religions define "belief" as a mental grasping and assent to a concept, something that is static. "Faith" refers to something neither static nor limited to the mind. The word means to demonstrate one's trust.

  To believe in someone, in the Judeo-Christian manner, means to attribute something to the subject either based on past evidence or merely credit. But to have faith in someone is to do what they ask of you, to literally act when the subject of faith is absent. The expression "faith can move mountains" is actually a mistranslation. The Greek word Jesus used means "faithfulness"

  The difference is enormous. If one believes God will move a mountain, the person will pray and then sit on the side of the road waiting for God to act. This is not faith, just belief. Faith, on the other hand, or better faithfulness will cause a person not merely to pray but to then begin pushing the mountain on their own. A faithful person does wait on God to move the mountain. A faithful person instead expects God to bless their own efforts of mountain-moving.
• 

  schnell

  Much simpler than that, @David_Jay. :) A few threads have popped up in recent days about belief in God and Jesus Christ. I was in a mood last night and wrote the OP.

  The fact is, I don't believe in any of them, but I still take some value from something I know to be myth.
• 

  David_Jay

  Oh yeah, I got that. I ran into a few of them myself and had similar feelings.

  I was just using your OP as a launching post to again highlight where JW teaching does not match up.

  P.S.--My favorite literary work on "belief" is the song "I Believe" from the musical "The Book of Mormon." With lines like "I believe God lives on a planet called Kolob...I believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America...I believe the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri...I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people...I am a Mormon, and a Mormon just believes."