Jesus speaks in third person

by menrov 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  menrov

  I stumbled on John 17:1,2 which reads in NET version:

  17 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you— 2 just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him.

  If Jesus had a close relation with his father, would you not expect to read something like this:

  17 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify me your Son, so that your Son I may glorify you— 2 just as you have given him me authority over all humanity, so that he I may give eternal life to everyone you have given him me.

  Any views?
  
  
• 

  Bobcat

  Hi Menrov,

  One possibility, just guessing of course, is that Jesus spoke of himself in the third person due to his prayer having an audience (those present at the last supper). At verse 4 he does pick up speaking in the first person.

  In other places Jesus also uses this third person reference to himself. (E.G. Mt 25:31-46) Moses often records himself in the third person in the Torah (assuming, of course, that he is the writer).

  Another possibility is that the writer of the gospel account begins his recording of the prayer with Jesus using the third person self-reference as an editorial choice for the sake of people who would be reading the account later. Perhaps this was a normal way of recording historical events. But all the gospel accounts have Jesus speaking of himself in the 3rd person. So it seems to me more probable that this was Jesus own method of referring to himself.

  There is an interesting StackExchange discussion of this topic here. (Although, admittedly, the StackExchange discussion goes on to center around the "Son of Man" title from Daniel 7:13, 14. And here is a short PDF on this topic. And here is another web-page on the topic.

  In Jn 17:1 Jesus uses the 3rd person noun ("your son"), in verse 2 the 3rd person pronoun ("him"), in verse 3 a 3rd person name/title ("Jesus Christ"), and then picks up the 1st person self-reference in verse 4 ("me"/"I"). Perhaps there was some purpose in stringing those things together in that order.
• 

  pistolpete

  Hi Menrov

  I remember there was a exjw site called jwstruggle with literally tons of exjws who were trying to hold on to the idea that the bible was God's word but the watchtower had left the truth.

  At first they were trying figure out certain things in the bible and I remember the same question you had came up.

  Eventually a lot of the members starting fighting over doctrine or what Jesus meant or why Jesus said this or that. Little by little many of the members started leaving one by one until finally the last few members just made it known that they didn't believe in the bible anymore and that there was no such thing as a loving and just God.
  

  That seems to be the steps a JWs who wakes up goes through. For some it take very little time to realize, for others it takes many years. Most will leave the watchtower but still believe in the bible. Then they struggle to find answers in the bible by studying it deeply only to find out the bible is a book filled with ancient man-made stories and not inspired.

  That's why those sites who try to stick to the bible either die eventually or have very few members. There is another exjw site that is also going through the same thing. It started off with many members and now there is less than ten that post regularly and mostly just references of what this scholar or that scholar says about this point or that with no real substance.

  Many of the ones that hang around do everything to debunk the Watchtower but at the same time continue to attend the Watchtower and support it by attending for whatever reason, which shows that in heart they are still JWs but with a little twist.
  

  If you really want to know what Jesus meant in many of his sayings, I suggest you start reading some of Bart Ehrman's books which you can get used on amazon for less than three dollars.

  Misquoting Jesus is probably the simplest explanation of why Jesus said many things that don't make sense.

  https://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3TLWL4E0K4F6D&dchild=1&keywords=bart+ehrman+books&qid=1608474567&sprefix=bart+eherman%2Caps%2C245&sr=8-3
• 

  waton

  If Jesus was a JW, as wt claims, ne would have used the name, as done by wt followers now, not the term "father".

  You get the sense though, how far we are from the unfathomable difference between a creator of it all and us.
• 

  sam68

  i suppose that is how people spoke in those days. I can imagine many children might ask their parents for things in the third person....... "Father, are you not going to buy that watch? You did promise your only daughter!"
• 

  bsmart

  It might have been 3rd person Thursday.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Jesus seems to have wanted to withold specific information at times, such as forbidding demons from confessing who he was. If he had identified the other sheep as Gentiles for example he might have been rejected and persecuted needlessly by the Jews as Paul was for including them in God's plan of salvation.

  Picked the following up somewhere on line.

  Ben witherington III (a conservative NT scholar) holds that

  1. if Jesus were to let on too early who He was He would have been crucified before being able to get done whatever preaching and teaching and miracles He did get done.

  2. if Jesus' own followers didn't understand fully what He meant by calling Himself the son of man and the son of God, then how much more so everyone else? The full disclosure of who He was came after the resurrection (because no one understood that the Messiah would have to be crucified and then raised) when in John 21 Thomas calls Him "my Lord and my God!"

     Makes sense to me.
• 

  waton

  if Jesus were to let on too early who He was He would have been crucified before being able----

  Vh: He should have hid his identity for a thousand years to prove that he really was the better, perfect replacement, stand- in, for Adam, then spend 3 1/2 years " in the service " the 10% of his lifetime he " served ".

  
  
• 

  EverApostate

  THe Gospels were written 40 years after the supposed Jesus Death. Most Biblical Scholars agree on this. Also, the guys who wrote the gospels were anonymous. Most likely, as many scholars Agree, one gospel was written first and the others copied with some Extra fittings. And these ambiguity is a result of that.

  My Question is:

  The Most important person of this Universe comes on a most important mission to earth. But why didnt he write his own chapter with absolute clarity and wisdom ?