Its been pointed out to me that two EYE witnesses are always needed for elders to form a judicial case. The sister could have sex with a brother. She confesses and he denies, he gets off free, sure. But someone told me if its minor that three friends need to talk to the sinner, that he needs to confess/talk to the elders, if not, theyll go in his behalf, and the elders form a judicial case for it.. So my question is, how can that be thecase if theyre not EYE witnesses? Some one care to explain?
Does the two witness rule still stand on minor sins?
by Homer notsimpson 9 Replies latest jw friends
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Crazyguy
If it's a case of adultery you need two witnesses , if it's pedophile then again it two witnesses unless it's an elder then you need 5. If it's apostacy you only need to think it and your just DFD!!
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Anders Andersen
A JW mock trial needs
- Two witnesses to the same event
- OR two witnesses to separate events of the same 'sin' (e.g. 2 JW both saw him smoking but at different occasions, or 2 victims that claim he touched their underage genitals, etc.)
- OR a confession from the sinner to 2 elders*
- OR two witnesses that personally heard a confession from the 'sinner' (e.g. he told his two best friends he shagged his GF, doesn't confess to elders himself, but his treacherous friends do tell on him)
Note that this information gathering is done before a JC is even started. A JC is only started when it's clear the 'sin' has been commited. During the JC they'll only verify the details of the case in order to verify how bad the perpetrator is and thus how many time he has to say a hail-Mary...erm I mean how long he'll be put on restrictions. Only in rare cases can an accused (who didn't confess) show the JC he actually didn't do whatever he's accused of. And in that case he might still be reproved for contempt of authority.
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*) These elders will preferably then not be part of the JC, but will function as witnesses to the prosecution, just as the witnesses in point 4
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stuckinarut2
Or if you are accused of the WORST sin in witness world: APOSTACY, they don't need ANY witnesses!
The Elders will just go all out in spreading slanderous gossip to EVERYONE in their congregations.
2 witnesses my ass....
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Listener
Not only must there be two eye witnesses but those witnesses must be 'credible', whatever that means but I'm assuming that if two siblings were to make a claim about their father they would do nothing if they felt or came to the conclusion that they were lying.
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OUTLAW
Does the two witness rule still stand on minor sins?
Not if a Kingdom Hall has Been Vandalized..
You don`t need any witnesses for that..
You don`t need to call the WBT$ Legal Department..
The WBT$ wants you to Call the Police Immediately..
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Homer notsimpson
Ok... But if a sister confesses to elders about her having fornication with the brother... Do those count as witnesses and is justified for a JC...or do they need a confession from him?
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Rainbow_Troll
The reason that the 2 witness rules is so messed up is that no child molestor is dumb enough to let anyone witness their crime. The only witness is the victim! So unless the perp is molesting more than one kid at a time or gets caught literally with his pants down, he's immune to prosecution!
In my congregation this is actually what happened to a brother. His wife caught him doing something with their daughter. If I knew who he was I might turn him in myself, but this is just something my mom picked up from the JW rumor mill.
While it's true that kids do lie like everyone else, there are actually fairly reliable methods of determining guilt. Just run the kid's clothing or bed sheets over with a black light. Is there semen? Does its DNA match that of the accused? Case closed.
The reason the two witness rule exists is because the GB knows it doesn't work. They don't want it to be known that their 'clean' organization is crawling with pedos, so they have deliberately made it as difficult as possible to 'convict' them. Once you have recognized this, everything makes sense.
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Vidiot
Rainbow_Troll - "The reason the two witness rule exists is because the GB knows it doesn't work. They don't want it to be known that their 'clean' organization is crawling with pedos, so they have deliberately made it as difficult as possible to 'convict' them. Once you have recognized this, everything makes sense."
A painful but - ultimately - undeniable truth.
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Crazyguy
Stuckinarut2 is so right, I just asked a couple of questions and was having a one one discussion with an elder about one subject and my reputation was all the while being ruined throughout my circuit!