Animal suffering, Christianity’s biggest problem.

by pistolpete 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete

    Human life is infused with Pain.

    But animal life is “Define by Pain.

    Animals in the wild are subject to endless torment from all angles of their existence. Wild dogs disembowel their prey, venomous snakes cause slow internal bleeding and paralysis. Crocodiles drown large animals in their jaws.

    And animals also suffer from rampant disease, dehydration, and starvation, and have to contend with forest fires and floods, harsh winters and blistering heat. And this is leaving out what humans do to add to the suffering of animals.

    The number of wild animals is immense. And all of them are under the un-airing supervision of an All Powerful, All Loving God. Yet despite this, all of them likely experience more fear, devastation and suffering in their lifetime than we human-beings are even capable of imagining.

    This is the problem Christians face. How can an All Powerful, All Loving God permit such insidious -unthinkable, levels of suffering?

    The excuses made to defend God are just ridiculous.

    Excuse number one by William Lane Craig, Christian Theologian;

    Animals are part of a broader ecosystem in which the human drama is played out. Such ecosystem must be balance and it is no accident that every ecosystem must involve predators and prey.

    For example, in Canada the absence of predators caused an overpopulation of Caribou herds because there was no one to pick off the diseased and aged, which in turn led to overpopulation, overgrazing, and starvation of many Caribou.

    The authorities introduced wolves into the area and the Caribou started diminishing and the problem was solved because God made animal life this way so it would work.

    Here is the problem.

    Are we expected to believe that an All Knowing, All Powerful, God of love couldn’t have made these ecosystem laws differently? Is GOD CONSTRAINED BY THESE LAWS?

    That’s the implication when they say the ecosystem MUST BE BALANCE THIS WAY.

    In other words they are saying:

    GOD COULDN’T CREATE AN ECOSYSTEM USING OTHER LESS PAINFUL METHODS!

    Instead, why didn’t God limit the number of times animals reproduce preventing overpopulation.

    Because the only way it will work is if God SAVES these animals from starving, by letting them being ripped apart and eaten alive by predators before they have a chance to starve.

    That being the case, why don’t we follow God example! Today. There are millions of elderly sickly people all around the earth who are starving. Why not introduce wild Bears and hyenas to rip them apart, maul them to pieces, and eat them alive so we can save them from starvation and curb overpopulation.

    Instead of making up all these excuses for GOD, let’s consider REALITY.

    What would we expect to find if we assumed there is no GOD, and animals in nature were just randomly mutating and evolving and competing for resources WITH NO DIVINE GUIDANCE?

    Well we would expect EXACTLY WHAT WE OBSERVE IN THE REAL WORLD----A MESSY BLOODBATH and a STRUGGLE FOR SURVIVAL.

    And what would we expect to see if we assumed the existence of an ALL LOVING -ALL POWERFUL GOD?

    THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE SEE TODAY.

    Here is the video exposing the problem we must face.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KDnnp0sDkI

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    That is a really good question PP. I would like to look at one of your assumptions though:

    "God made animal life this way"

    The God of the bible could never do such a thing. I think you are describing a different god. God placed everything on earth under man's dominion and then pronounced it all to be "very good". No suffering, no death, etc.

    But then man chose to be separate from God, and in so doing separated himself and everything under his responsibility from the Source of Life as well. As a result, decay, depravity and decadence set in.

    Animals, belonging to the "house of Adam" also shared in the Curse, for they were all under the care, dominion and responsibility of Adam. Like him, they were made of the dust of the ground that God had cursed. Like Adam's body, their bodies also must return to the ground. The nature and order of many life forms changed.

    Henceforth, "death reigned ... even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" (Romans 5:14).

    Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. - Romans 8:22

    One philosophy professor reportedly points out what he sees as a logical problem with this explanation:

    "The real problem is with the Fall, when a once-paradisiacal nature becomes recalcitrant as a punishment for human sin. ... This does not fit into the biological paradigm at all. Suffering in a harsh world did not enter chronologically after sin and on account of it. There was struggle for long epochs before human arrival."

    The great truth that evolutionists fail to accept is: There is death in the world only because there is sin in the world.

    The deep-age paradigm accepted by evolutionists prevents acceptance of a biblical explanation because they believe that death preceded Adam.

    Biblical Literalists don't have this problem. But, both assumptions can't be true. One must be false.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I watched this from Alex. He’s interesting to listen to, especially because his thinking seems to be changing all the time. He makes a good argument on the vegan front.

    I remember when he was a typical “New Atheist” fanboy of Hitchens and Dawkins. His thinking has developed a lot since then. His conversations with Justin Brierley and Keith Ward are good.

    He has zeroed in on a difficult aspect of suffering for theists to explain in animal suffering. I can only think to say that the world is not currently as it’s supposed to be, according to Romans 8, and we await the expectation of all creation for restoration.

    I have also been reading about Schopenhauer recently snd he’s another very thoughtful snd nuanced atheist. He argues that everything in the world is exactly as it must be. In moments of unexpected clarity, I can see what he is getting at.

    i know these two lines of thought feel contradictory, but I find merit in both.

  • waton
    waton
    But then man chose to be separate from God

    pp. That idea assumes there was no animal / plant balancing act by predation happening before 3000 BC.

    How about the meat eating dinosaurs tyrannosaurus rex? the roque teen agers of the species?

    My only answer is,: animal pain might be overrated, unfelt. "Love" is for us to create.

    "The fall " does not explains it at all.


  • pistolpete
    pistolpete
    slimboyfat

    I have also been reading about Schopenhauer recently snd he’s another very thoughtful snd nuanced atheist. He argues that everything in the world is exactly as it must be.

    I'm familiar with Schopenhauer, but I'm not familiar with his view that;

    everything in the world is exactly as it must be.

    Is he saying the same thing Alex is saying, that life has evolved just so? Or is he alluding to something else?

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    "The excuses made to defend God are just ridiculous"

    I couldn't agree more. Lao Tzu wrote that justification never convinces. Apologetics are pointless.

    I have watch several videos of this young man. I find him quite intelligent and applaud his choice to do the work that he does. However, I find him to be a meta-skeptic, which in turn is a form of nihilism an nihilism is pathological.

    We must start of with a correct understanding and use the proper terminology as words are placeholder for ideas. Pain and suffering are two separate, but relate things. Pain is what happens. Suffering is how we respond to pain. Pain is inevitable. Suffering is a choice.

    One of the most common forms of suffering humans endure is anxiety or fear of a future problem that may or may not befall us. Animals do not suffer. Animals do feel pain. Animals are not aware that they are going to die, but do have a natural defense instinct to avoid an early death. The anxiety of dying creates probably the single highest level of suffering in humans. That is followed by the fear of pain and the fear of not feeling pleasure.

    Pain and pleasure are two sides of the same coin. People are constantly chasing after pleasure and constantly running away from pain. It is like watching people trying to lift themselves into the air by pulling up their shoelaces and running away from their shadows.

    So Alex tells us that mankind's suffering is proof that an all powerful, all loving god does not exist. The problem with this is that, whether there is a god or not, one cannot experience pleasure without having to experience pain. Dual thinking creates this. Nonduality means accepting both pleasure and pain thus ceasing suffering.

    Furthermore, should we ask and expect the universe to conform with our standards and doubt the existence of God in all things because He does not observe the ordinary standards of middle-class humanitarian morality? Humanity has envisioned God as this meek, kindly old gentleman or an infinitely powerful nebulous spirit of pure love.

    I am not going to suggest that the Bible is a literal book and the god of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac is real. I will not suggest that there really was a Jesus and that he died and was resurrected 3 days later. What I will point out is that the Gospels has this Jesus character stating -

    • Don't be anxious over your daily necessities.
    • Worrying (anxiety aka suffering) won't add a day to your life.
    • The plants and animals have all their necessities taken care of by the universe. Why wouldn't you?

    In short, the "Problem of Evil" is highly flawed. God could be both creator and destroyer. Making excuses for the latter as Christians do actually is an exercise in a lack of faith. Conversely, to use pain, old age, sickness, and death to either 1. deny God exists or 2. prove God is an asshole highly egotistical.

    Canticle of the Sun

    Most High, all powerful, good Lord,

    Yours are the praises, the glory, the honour, and all blessing.

    To You alone, Most High, do they belong,

    and no man is worthy to mention Your name.

    Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures,

    especially through my lord Brother Sun,

    who brings the day; and you give light through him.

    And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendour!

    Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

    Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,

    in heaven you formed them clear and precious and beautiful.

    Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Wind,

    and through the air, cloudy and serene,

    and every kind of weather through which

    You give sustenance to Your creatures.

    Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Water,

    which is very useful and humble and precious and chaste.

    Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Fire,

    through whom you light the night and he is beautiful

    and playful and robust and strong.

    Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Mother Earth,

    who sustains us and governs us and who produces

    varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

    Praised be You, my Lord,

    through those who give pardon for Your love,

    and bear infirmity and tribulation.

    Blessed are those who endure in peace

    for by You, Most High, they shall be crowned.

    Praised be You, my Lord,

    through our Sister Bodily Death,

    from whom no living man can escape.

    Woe to those who die in mortal sin.

    Blessed are those who will

    find Your most holy will,

    for the second death shall do them no harm.

    Praise and bless my Lord,

    and give Him thanks

    and serve Him with great humility

    - St. Francis, 1224 AD

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    This whole topic was only figured out 150 years ago almost. Why are we arguing about it and calling on ancient gods in 2021?

    truth_b_known show me that quote....
  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    It seems to me no topic in philosophy is ever settled.

    One of the few statements I can wholeheartedly agree with, and of course the irony is not lost on me, is W.V.O. Quine: “no statement is immune to revision”.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    I've read that one of the biggest causes of death in wild animals are problems relating to dental issues, like gum disease, blood poisoning etc.

    Not a great way to go.

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