"Man is the measure"

by onacruse 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Escaping (note present tense...a work in progress ) the b/w JW mentality in which I was raised is one of the most challenging (if not the most challenging) thing(s) I've ever faced. I won't fool myself into thinking that I fully understand the answers that I think I have, but "the discovery is in the dialogue," so here goes.

    I'll start here with a quote from An Introduction to Early Greek Philosophy (pp. 243-4):

    The Transmission of Arete

    How do men acquire this knowledge of right and wrong? You might as well ask, says Protagoras, how they learn Greek. They learn it when they are children--from their parents, from their teachers, from the magistrates, in short from everyone:

    "As soon as a child can grasp what is said to him, his nurse, his mother, his tutor, and his father himself vie with each other to make him as good as possible; and they teach him with regard to every action he performs and every word he speaks that this is just and this is unjust, this is good and this is bad, this is holy and that unholy, and that he must do this and not do that. If he obeys willingly, well and good; if not, they straighten him out...

    Afterwards they send him to school, charging his teachers to take more pains over the deportment of their children than their letters or music lessons. And the teachers do take pains over this, and when the children have learned their letters and are ready to understand the written word as formerly they learned the spoken, the teachers set the works of good poets before them and make them learn by rote--poems in which they meet with many admonitions and many stories and praises and eulogies of good men of old, so that the child will be inspired to imitate them and long to become like them...[other examples]"

    In all these ways society takes care to see that its values are perpetuated.

    ...

    One difficulty, however, remains. Protagoras seems to assume that the ideas of right and wrong which society implants in us by these methods are correct. No doubt they seem correct in the eyes of the society which inculcates them. But the question before us is not whether they seem right, but whether they are right...we know from other considerations what answer Protagoras would make to it: if the values of a society seem right to it, they are right.

    This lays the groundwork for "subjectivism," and incorporates thoroughly debated and, imho, compelling evidence from epistemology and existentialism.

    For myself, this has led to a strong conviction in "to thine own self be true."

    There are numerous ramifications of this subject, including what might end up being "Part 2" of this thread: "Of all things the measure is man: of existing things, that they exist; of nonexistent things, that they do not exist."

    Craig

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Sorry, I got confused. I thought you meant this....

    alt

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    LOL @ Goph...who's Clay Aiken?

    Yeah, I shoulda put this in "Beliefs"...done.

    Craig

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Craig, I think that you'll need to address the last paragraph of the included excerpt a bit more... imho.

    And the imagery of the whippings probably distracts from the message a tad (flashbacks!)

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    PS, thanks! I hadn't thought of the triggering impact of that phrase...done.

    More to follow re: the implications of Protagoras' view, Plato's Theaetetus, and Democritus.

    Craig

  • Oracroth
    Oracroth

    Cat Stevens: "From the moment I could talk, I was ordered to listen". How true this was for me. I remember in my earlier days of life, the amount of attention I got to solve my "problem". I once asked how I was diagnosed with emotional problems, and the reply was "You hate school right? That's an emotional problem." I research and read daily. I grow in intelligence, I have many people I consider a teacher. Is it that I hate school? Or I hate how the system of education worked with me? Their cure was to forcefully subject me to the informations I rejected. I was sent to psychologists and studied only to have those "specialists" say "Something is bothering him" You think?! They tried to force chemicals down my throat such as ridilin and other mind control elements but I refused. Then they decided after ignoring my pleas to put me in an institution where my education was more free form and an agreement between myself and the "teacher". I accelled right away. Perhaps we should try to listen and understand someone before we propose a method of teaching.

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    Oracroth... amen, bro. The school system, for the most part, sucks at dealing with anyone who doesn't fit into their mold... and then plays "blame the victim." It's really sad.

    Onacruse... agree 100%. Even people--such as Christians--who believe that they can get an objective morality from an external source are still relying on their own subjectivism in choosing the source. There's no escaping subjectivity.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    ...or escaping personal responsibility...

    Ultimately even an external value system must be internalized and acted upon, hence, it becomes a subjective reality and a personal responsibility. We cannot abrogate our morality to a "system" without willingly chosing so to do.

    carmel

  • gumby
    gumby
    "to thine own self be true."

    And this is where craig has decided is a good resting place.

    To be true to thy self, is to be be true to the man that mom and dad ,and society, and culture, has developed within you as you have stated. Thy self, is craig that has been molded to a degree, by others, ....and then he has taken all these surrounding choices of what is right and wrong, and has developed HIS own idea of which of those is corect.....and he goes by that.

    I think that's what we all do really. We feel if we can try our best and honestly figure out what we are to do with ourself in life......and live by that......then we can be comfortable within ourself and heart.

    I'll leave some crap for later.

    Nice to chew on your ear ya sick bastard,

    Luv Gumby

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