To: Uncle Onion & Ros

by Amazing 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Uncle & Ros: Buried deep down in Tina's post Uncle asked whether I was an Atheist and Ros noted that she thought I was a Liberal Christian. I have been going through an evolution in my life, but I will try to give a good snapshot of where I am at now. I may yet change one way or another:

    1. I still believe in God. Even though science demonstrates that a number of common beliefs from the Bible, held mostly by Christians, to be in error, I find it difficult to believe that our entire existence is pure chance development. It is too complex and interconnected to be a sole product of evolution. BUT ... I could be wrong.

    2. I believe that the Bible is seriously flawed in anything that may be considered 'sceintific' and that much of it is allergorical type of myth. I believe that the Bible has historical errors as well. But, it contains some good and some wisdom. I agree with the position that the Bible 'may' contain inspiration from God, but that the Bible itself is not inspired.

    3. Jesus Christ is the strong suit for me. He was a visionary for his time, and would be today as well. It is not so much that I have faith in Jesus Christ (although I do) but it is Jesus Christ who gives me faith and hope. I believe that today, Jesus Christ would be on the Internet nailing many religions, not the least of which would be the Jehovah's Witnesses, as being hypocritical frauds.

    4. I am not sure I can be called a 'Liberal' Christian, because I am not sure what that is. I have no membership in any organized religion, and believe that anything Christian is a matter of what each individual is. I do not judge those who are members of churches. But, I believe that Christianity is something more than a church. And, I cannot submit, ever again, to any organized system. BRCI is about as far as I can go.

    5. If I change my position about God or Christ, it would be toward 'Agnosticism'. I find that a less arrogant position to take, because there is so much we all don't know, that to assume there is no God, is as arrogant as saying that Earth is the only planet in the universe with life.

    6. Given all the above, I do seriously question God, his wisdom, his love, his justice, his power, his motives, his plans, his purpose, and his very person. I find that putting the human race through over 6,000 years (if you accept Biblical timelines) or many hundreds of thousands of years of HELL for a piece of damn fruit eaten by two ignorant idiots in the Garden of Eden is stretching things just a bit. There is, therefore, something very wrong with the whole picture.

    7. Atheist? No. Agnostic? Not yet. Believer, to some degree on my own terms. Hope? Absolutely, but not hoping to get a reward, as that seem rather self-serving. Rather, I hope for some answers, and thus give God the benefit of the doubt, and hope that the Devil does not exist.

    Question: Do any of you think it is possible that it was the Devil that set-up Adam & Eve with the Tree rule, and it was GOD who was trying to get Adam & Eve to think for themselves and not just obey out of blind acceptance, but make a choice? And that it was really Satan that labeled God as a snake because he did not want humans to become independant? Think about it?

    No, I am not going crazy, just wondering if maybe the whole Garden incident is political "spin" by the Devil, including the invention of religions. And that aside from creating life, God has taken a back seat and really inspired nothing ... and merely tried to get humans to think for themselves. - Amazing

  • ros
    ros
    4. I am not sure I can be called a 'Liberal' Christian, because I am not sure what that is. I have no membership in any organized religion, and believe that anything Christian is a matter of what each individual is. I do not judge those who are members of churches. But, I believe that Christianity is something more than a church. And, I cannot submit, ever again, to any organized system. BRCI is about as far as I can go.

    Hi, Amazing:
    When I say "liberal" Christian, that is as opposed to "conservative" Christian, which generally applies to evangelical literalists who hold the Bible to be both literal and inerrant. However, now that you mention it, I can see where the term could be confusing. In that sense, I consider myself a "liberal Christian". I don't think of the term as having reference to moral values. Maybe I better think of a better descriptive term.

    Question: Do any of you think it is possible that it was the Devil that set-up Adam & Eve with the Tree rule, and it was GOD who was trying to get Adam & Eve to think for themselves and not just obey out of blind acceptance, but make a choice? And that it was really Satan that labeled God as a snake because he did not want humans to become independant? Think about it?

    My take on the story is somewhat different than yours, Amazing. Next time we meet, we'll have to discuss this.
  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    Amazing:

    How are you? I've enjoyed the new series you've been posting. What I especially like and find admirable is that you humbly offer yourself (instead of pointing your finger at others) as an example of what you find wrong with the WT system. This serves two purposes -- you don't offend someone else by using them as an example and you demonstrate that it is possible to grow and change after having been a JW for a number of years. Keep up the good work!

    I thought I'd provide you a link that outlines one of the most coherent explanations for some of the Genesis myths I've come accross. Its rather lengthy and talks of other things, but the first half should give you a good idea of the author's -- Daniel Quinn -- point of view.

    http://www.ishmael.com/Education/Writings/southwestern.shtml

    Take care; peace and blessings,

    CPiolo

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Ros: I guess that in the sense where 'Conservative' might apply to fundamentalists [Yikes!], I am definitely not conservative. [Although, as you well know I am politically conservative.]

    I would be fair to say that I am not an Institutional Christian who submits to a church system of government, whether Liberal or Conservative. I believe that Christianity is only to be framed within the concept of a large extended family, but each individual remain Autonomous with respect to accountability to a religious organization.

    I do accept that at times Christians may 'organize' some special limited effort to help the poor or sick in someway. I was greatly influenced on this by the book Paul's Idea of Community and subsequent material that supports a loose 'confederation' of Christians.

    As far as the way you may have used the term, Liberal Christian, I am somewhat Liberal on social issues - and - this would include certain aspects of the Christian faith. My Liberalism is non-dogmatic. I can accept, for example, that some Christian's are Trinitarian and some are Unitarian. I am neither, because I really don't know what God's nature is.

    Hope that helps some. Thanks for getting beck to me. - Amazing

  • RationalWitness
    RationalWitness

    Hi Amazing!

    Glad to hear you'll be at BRCI. I enjoyed your presentation last year. Look forward to some more good discussions with you.

    Cheers!
    Rational

  • rem
    rem

    Amazing,

    Your thought about the garden of eden made me think of the Gnostics. Didn't they believe that God was really the bad guy in the garden of eden? I have a book with some Gnostic writings and I remembered something like that. I'll have to take a look. I just thought you might like to know that others have had a similar take on the story as you in the past.

    rem

  • uncle_onion
    uncle_onion

    Thanks Amazing for the posts

    Reading your ideas reminded me a lot of the way that I am feeling. I want to believe that there is a God out there but can see a lot of contradictions and things that cannot be right in the bible scientifically. I have been reading a book called "The Jesus mysteries" which puts forward an idea that Jesus is only a myth. Although it made a few good points it did not fully convince me. What is amazing is the similarity between pre Bible religions and myths and the Jesus story. But how can a mythological man make such an impact on peoples lives if he did not exist? The early christians were prepared to die....what for a myth? Ill be interested in any comments?

    UO

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Uncle: I believe that Jesus Christ really existed. I believe that the historical backdrop during the first and second century is enough to confirm that he was a real person. Most modern Jews also accept that Jesus existed, but they place him in a category of being a local Rabbi who was on the fringe, or at least that is the impression I am given.

    Jesus Christ was clearly ahead of his time, and promoted concepts that clearly give a lot of personal freedom, and mono-e-mono relationship with God. Jesus also taught much of what we would today attribute to common sense.

    Whether he is a third person of a Triune Godhead, or a singular firstborn created angel, abbeit, the big daddy Angel in his own class, remains the problem for debaters to try and solve.

    I believe that his death at a minimum illustrates that he was willing to stand the test of his own convictions and principles, which says a lot ofr the man Jesus Christ. If his death provides a means by which God forgives our sinful nature, then this is even more vital to us.

    I still accept Jesus Christ as m savior, and believe in eternal salvation, not on my works, but upon his death. I believe it is soimething that a responsible creator should do for those who are sinful and imperfect through not fault of their own.

    BUT, as you agreed with me, this still leaves a lot of unanswered questions, issues, theological contradictions, and confusion. But, I am not harmed by holding to faith in Christ, because I do so as an individual on my own, and I don't impose this on anyone else.

    I think that these issues are worthy of debate, and as we debate will help us develop to a level where we are comfortable with what and who we are and where we stand in the cosmos.

    Thanks again for your good points. - Amazing

  • uncle_onion
    uncle_onion

    Amazing

    But if he died for us then surely there must be a God and the Bible must be right. Jesus and what he did is only mentioned in the Bible and there are "prophecies" that he "fulfilled"? Could it be a case that we dont have the answers for everything and so should trust the Bible and forget what we cant explain?

    UO

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