by pc 6 Replies latest watchtower bible
I'm sure I probably missed a discussion on this, but isn't this too a good example for the Trinity?
John 10:28 - 30 And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one can snatch them out of my hand.What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one. (NWT)
To pc,
In Hebrews it says, "God, who long ago at many times and in many ways spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things and through whom he has made the system of things." (Hebrews 1:1, 2)
The next verses are a "revelation" (disclosure/uncovering) of who Jesus Christ is:
"He is the 'beaming forth from' of his glory and the image IMPRINTED by his very substance, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made purification for our sins he sat down at the right hand of the Greatness in lofty places. So he has become so much better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:3, 4, see NWT footnotes)
The Son is the 'beaming forth from' of his glory. This means the very glory (worship) of our Father comes FROM him. It beams forth from HIS body. He is also the image of God, but not only that, but he has been imprinted by his actual SUBSTANCE. This means the very substance/nature of the Father that no other creature in heaven has, is imprinted in the Son. Therefore, the Son is the EXACT image of the Father and speaking or referring to the Son is the SAME as referring to the Father. The Son is not the Father, but shares the unique 'nature' of the Father. Thus, what no one can snatch out of the hand of the Father, no one can snatch out of the hand of the Son. The Father and the Son are one.
The Son, as a spirit, can enter into the body of the Father and become 'one' with the Father. Anyone else who wishes to come to the Father, cannot come to him unless it is through the Son (John 14:6).
Aaron:
Throw the Holy Spirit in there, as being "in" Father and Son, and then make the final leap to personifying "Him" and you've reached the Trinity, bro
after 14 years of being out of JWs and 10 years of being a non-christian, and looking at the bible as a disinterested person, my conclusion is still that the trinity is pure BS.
1. there are three visions by people claiming to look into heaven. Daniel, Stephen, and John... all three to me show exactly the same thing, namely ONE who is seen as GOD alone, and another who Daniel calls the son of MAN, Stephen calls Jesus on the right hand of GOD and John sees as the Lamb who approaches the throne of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY as the lion of JUDAH... there are only two beings mentioned in all there cases, only ONE of these is seen as GOD and spoken of as GOD.... they say a picture is worth a thousand words but what are visions worth? then there is the point that in revelations the holy spirit is spoken of as 7 bowls of fire and the seven eyes of God, which seems a direct reference to the seven angels of God mentioned in the hebrew bible as the eyes of God which rove the earth.... there is no person ever seen in any vision as the holy ghost.
2. since most people accept as fact that the jews were among the few who had no trinity concept at all, there is an odd absence in that there is no one explaining this change of the nature of God to anyone in the bible anywhere... trinitarians assume different texts are proofs of the trinity that they already believe in, but no one in the bible ever taught them the trinity. the trinity is always a teaching outside the bible by people who already believe in it... this absence screams out to anyone who looks from a jewish point of view for the teacher of the trinity within the bible
3. the only verse which discusses the nature of God in context of other gods in the greek scripture as far as I can find is 1 cor 8:5-6, all others are out of context when it come to this topic.... and this verse quite clearly says that to us [believers], there is but ONE who is GOD, the father.
4. the verses that trinitarians are always saying proves their belief are always out of context when it comes to who god is. not one of them are about someone teaching someone else.
"I and the father are one"; similar has been said by true mystics throughout time; as a beginning or end to our true and infinite Source, exists only in the mind and it's beliefs -- not in actuality. So, this scripture could be pointing to a universal-truth. On the other hand...if one is attempting to piece together a finite god separate and apart who is made up a various fragments, then this scripture could, perhaps, point to a trinity. j
Or perhaps both are true, depending on what stage your mind is at
Dearest LittleToe,
The holy spirit is the "living water" that God gave to his Son and made him the "chosen vessel" to pour out that spirit upon anyone asking, anyone seeking, anyone thirsting, anyone knocking (John 7:37-39; Titua 3:4-7). Through the Son, we recieve the holy spirit, the "living water" of God that grants everlasting life (John 4:10, 14). When we "drink" this spirit, and it remains in us, it bears fruit THROUGH us of love, joy, peace, long-suffering, goodness, kindness, self-control (Galatians 5:22, 23). We did not choose the Christ, but he chose us and he appointed us to keep bearing fruit that the holy spirit bears in us and prove ourselves his disciples (John 15:16)
Peace to you,
Aaron :)
