Passover vs Last Supper

by undercover 4 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • undercover
    undercover

    After reading of Shotgun's experience with the elders and the argument about the events of the night of the last supper, I did some research about the events surrounding Jesus' last couple of days.

    In true WTS fashion, the GB has taken an event, despite all the controversy surrounding it, and has decreed in blanket statements, "facts" of Jesus last meal and exactly what happened, all without any question that it didn't happen any other way. To read a Watchtower, it's quite simple what happened. Jesus told the disciples to prepare for Passover, they ate Passover, Jesus exposed Judas, Judas left and Jesus instituted the Memorial. When you read the Bible, it's not that clear. In fact there are inconsistencies and outright contradictions. When you research different resources, including the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Jewish Encyclopedia, etc. controversies and differences in opinions and beliefs surface about how the Passover was celebrated and how the Festival of Unleavened Bread was viewed. Controversies abound about whether Judas was present at the instituting of the Memorial. Controversies exist on whether Jesus died on Nisan 14th or Nisan 15th. There are some who think that Jesus died on a Thursday instead of a Friday. All of these theoriests use the Bible and Jewish history to support their claim.

    The WTS says it happens a certain way and all the little JWsheep fall in line and accept it. I was one of them. I never questioned it. It happened the way they said. I didn't know about the idea that the Jews of that time celebrated the Passover or Pashal on two different nights depending on what region they were from. I didn't know how the Fesitval of Unleavened Bread worked. I never paid any attention that John said Judas left immediately after the morsel was handed to him by Jesus, thus the WTS says he wasn't present at the new memorial when Luke says that AFTER the instituting of the memorial Jesus said his betrayer was at the table with him.

    The events of Jesus' death and last few days is much more complicated than I had ever imagined. After research, I actually have more questions than before. But what is apparent is that the WTS doesn't know anymore than anyone else. They picked a scenerio that works with their beliefs and since they have "God's Spirit" it had to have happened that way. I, by not accepting their position as God's spokesmen, question their scenerio, especially when it cannot be verified strictly by the scriptures.

    JWs cannot question these inconsistencies. They have to go to the memorial and accept the sequence of events just as it is handed to them, despite that there are no known facts surrounding the events they are celebrating.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Undercover,

    Thanks for a most interesting, timely post. I suggest you check out a recent thread, ``Shotgun's shootout part 4" in which Leolaia and others made some very relevant contributions to this very subject.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Please note my contribution to the Shotgun shootout thread....

    Shotgun.....Your intuitions are correct. The Eucharist, which is Greek for "giving thanks", is derived not from the Passover seder but from the sabbatical meals held just before the Sabbath starts and on the noon of the Sabbath, which were also held on the eve of the Passover, exactly as described in John. Here is an excerpt from the Jewish Encyclopedia on the subject:

    The Sabbath and Holy-Day Meals: These, which in later times assumed the character of simple family repasts permeated by the spirit of genuine domesticity, were originally Banquets of the Pharisaic brotherhood, enlivened by song and discussions, at which the men reclined; the women and children?if they took part at all?not being considered as among the number present. Wine at the opening and closing of the meal was deemed an indispensable feature; over it the benediction and a blessing of sanctification of the day were offered by the one who presided at the table and broke the bread. Perfumes and ointments as well as a variety of dishes were characteristics of these meals, to the preparation of which some would devote a whole week (Ber. viii. 5; Tos. Ber. vi. 5; Tos. Bezah, ii. 13, 14; Bezah 16a; Pes. R. xxiii.; Geiger, "Urschrift," p. 123; idem, "Jüd. Zeit." iv. 105 et seq. ). These Banquets might not be held, however, at the time of the public discourses. "Two great families held such on Saobath eve and Saturday noon at such an improper time, and were exterminated for such transgression" (Git. 38b). Three meals are prescribed for the Sabbath; one on the preceding evening; another at noon (to which some add a breakfast in the forenoon); and the third in the late afternoon (Shab. 117b et seq. ). The Passover-eve meal also, although eminently a family feast, perhaps as early as Mishnaic times (Pes. x. 4), had originally the character of a banquet, at which the Pharisaic brothers sat together eating and drinking, singing hymns, and reciting or expounding chapters from Holy Scripture, as may be learned from the Pesah Haggadah and the New Testament story of the last supper (Matt. xxvi. and parallels).

    Thus, if the Eucharist was a continuation of this Jewish practice, it was done every week. And there is direct evidence of this. The late first century A.D. catecism of the Didache says: "On the Lord's day gather together and break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 14:1), and a few chapters earlier are given instructions of how to give the thanksgiving of the Eucharist with the bread and wine (9:1-5). It also related fasting to be done on Wednesdays and Fridays right before the mention of the Eucharist, again suggesting a weekly observance (8:1). The expression "Lord's Day" means the Sabbath in Isaiah 58:13 (LXX) and possibly in Revelation 1:10, Jesus is the "Lord of the Sabbath" in Mark 2:28, and Ignatius of Antioch (writing c. A.D. 117) refered to Christians as "no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through him" (Magnesians 9:1). This text suggests that the expression "Lord's Day" shifted early on from the Sabbath to Sunday, the day of Jesus' resurrection. The importance of this day is noted as early as in 1 Corinthians 16:2 which designated "the first day of every week" as including the collection of gifts in worship services, and Acts 20:7 even mentions a service "on the first day of the week" when the Christians "came together to break bread," suggesting possibly a Sunday Eucharist service (tho this is not certain). Even Pliny the Elder noted that Christians assembled together "on a fixed day (stato die)" (Epistolae 10.96). Barnabas 15:9 (early second century A.D.) similarly says that "we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven". It would not be unreasonable that the Eucharist was part of these weekly gatherings on the "fixed day". Later sources (late second century A.D.) show that the "Lord's Day" was clearly established as Sunday; the Acts of Peter called the "Lord's Day" (dies dominica) "the next day after the Sabbath," and the Acts of Paul referred to praying "on the Sabbath as the Lord's Day drew near" (cf. Act Verc. 29). But regardless of whether the "Lord's Day" fell on a Saturday or Sunday, it is clear that the Didache described a weekly observance of the Eucharist. And Justin Martyr (c. A.D. 155), echoing the same thought in Barnabas, also designated Sunday as the day the Eucharist was partaken every week:

    "Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: 'I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord: but ye profane it.' He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane . The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first." (Dialogue with Trypho, 41)

    Hope this helps!

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Hi Undercover

    This was my last reply to true north on the shootout thread part 4 on why I brought up the memorial issue with the elders.

    The point was being able to pick up any current WT article and find that it did not adhere to the scriptures with less than 5 minutes of research..Elders will always point out..that's an old article or that's not current, why do you dig through the past articles to point out mistakes...this was to make a point that you can basically pick up any article and find lies..no matter when it was printed.

    True north.. They did place the Last Supper on Passover and use that to calculate the date for the Memorial, didn't they (don't they)?) It amazes me how strong and effective the JW filters were for me when I read the Bible back then. As Swan observed, it seems so obvious; did the WT authors ever try to offer some explanation for this? How could they have gotten away with simply ignoring this when it has so much attention drawn to it every year at Memorial time?

    True North

    There is a reason and motive behind everything they do.

    The reason it is made to look like it's impossible for Judas to have been at the last supper is they teach that only the 144000 faithful servants partake and go to heaven. They teach that it's impossible for Judas to go to heaven because he was unfaithful thus regardless of proof or not he could not have been there.

    If they were to allow for the idea that Judas was present and did partake it would open the possibility that not only the 144000 destined for heaven should partake but others as well...the great crowd of udder sheep plus on lookers.

    15 or 16 million last year

    They would not want that...just think of how much wine and bread they would have to buy...I could open my own little deli outside the assembly hall on Nisan 14 each year and make money selling cheap wine and falafels or whatever they are..matzo's is it?

    The reason they stick with having the memorial on the day of preperation or the same day Jesus had the last supper is ok except that they lie and say it was the passover meal they shared as well.

    Why this little lie...the passover was a yearly event, how many times have you heard it brought out from the platform that Christendom have it all wrong because they pass or share the emblems many times throughout the year when it should only happen once a year just like the passover was yearly and Jesus instituted it on the passover? How many times do you have your wedding anniversary, once a year? You must have heard this line of reasoning.

    What if Jesus just did it on his last night on earth and that is all there is too it. When Paul mentions the Lords evening meal he talks about it like it was so commonplace that many had become complacent with it, eating too much or even getting drunk.

    Does it sound reasonable that a once a year event which replaced the passover meal and was to be shared by those hoping to go to heaven would be treated so carelessly....or does it sound like they did this on such a consistent basis that they became complacent?

    No where in the scriptures does it say it was to be an annual event....all the other annual festivals and events were plainly spelled out, why not this one? Seems like Christendom might be right on this one and the WT hates it!

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hello Shotgun, Leolaia, et al.

    The Passover and the Lord's Supper are obviously confusing to some and by now much false information is present. So here is a simple and direct way to understand it.

    WHAT DO THE JEWS DO?

    One basis for the WTS for having its beliefs is fostering the idea that the Jews, rejected by God and so stiff-necked that they even corrupted and began to misunderstand the Passover celebration itself and thus are celebrating it wrongly. That being noted, I would have especially you Shotgun and Leolaiae (whose nicely documented reference, of course, didn't address the TRADITIONAL JEWISH CELEBRATION for some reason--why go there, right?) let's look at what the Jewish tradition for Passover is first.

    Plain and simple, if you check any Jewish calendar, the main celebration of Passover is held on the 15th of Nisan and the Seder meal that SAME SABBATH DAY from sundown to Midnight. This is important. Check the Mishna! Passover for the Jews ENDS AT MIDNIGHT! It's very specific.

    What does that mean? That means as far as they are concerned, that reference to ending the meal at Midnight is in relation to the significance of the angel of death appearing at Midnight and the significance of partaking of the Passover meal before the angel of death arrives. Now note that makes perfect sense. After all, how is partaking of the lamb going to save you after the angel of death is long gone? What's the significance after the fact? There is none.

    But this gives us the critical detail of understanding the timing for Passover. That is, the meal per instruction was not to be left "until the morning." What was the significance of morning? Was there something impure about daylight? No. It was simply that the significance of the meal ended at morning when the angel of death appeared.

    Well how is that the case?

    Simple. Even though the Jewish secular days were from nightfall-to-nightfall and their sabbath days were from sundown-to-nightfall, the actual calendar days were equal, being counted from Midnight-to-Midnight.

    Now this concept may have been modified in Jewish tradition over time, but it's recaptured by specific scriptural reference and historical reference. Thus note that the Egyptian secular day was from Midnight to Midnight, just as our days are. For obvious reason, it makes each day the same length. Thus the way the Jews celebrate Passover now is exactly the way they celebrated when they left Egypt and changed their DATE at Midnight but began their regular day at nightfall or "twilight" and their sabbath day at sundown. And even though their sabbath day began at sundown it still ends at "twilight."

    Now, let's just pretend for one moment, just for the sake of argument that that is truly the case. How does that affect the chronology of Passover during the time of Jesus? As noted, Passover is the first event of the sabbath day of Nisan 14/15. That is the point I want to make. The Seder meal is eaten on a sabbath day. The SAME DAY the Jews left Egypt and the same sabbath day that at noon there is a special sabbath meal.

    So once you understand that after sundown on Nisan 14 that the sabbath day begins of the same night the Jews left Egypt and that the Jews left after Midnight which is now Nisan 15th, then you can piece together what happened during Jesus' last week.

    But just to make this clear, since the DATE changed for the Jews at Midnight, 12:01 a.m. was considered the next "morning" just like we consider 12:01 a.m. to be in the "morning" because it begins a new day.

    Thus the command for the Jews not to leave anything from the meal until morning, the time the Jews understand even now to mean Midnight, means the Jews did not change their date until Midnight. Thus from sundown to Midnight was still considered "Nisan 14th" even though after sundown it was still the same sabbath day they were celebrating to leave Egypt.

    This is also why, when being SPECIFIC about some sabbath days, it is necessary to express it with the two dates involved. Thus while the main celebration and solemn assemblies are held at Noon on the special "high sabbath" days, the sabbath officially begins at sunset on the previous day. Thus, for instance, while the Day of Atonement celebration is held on the 10th, the sabbath day begins on the 9th "at evening" (i.e. at sundown).

    Note Leviticus 23:27 "However, on the tenth of this seventh month is the day of atonement. A holy convention should take place for you..." 32 "It is a sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must afflict your souls on the ninth of hte month in the evening..."

    Thus, the Passover Week, which has two special sabbath days, the 15th and the 21st, the 1st and the 7th days, begins specifically on Nisan 14th in the evening: (Ex. 12:18) "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down til the twenty-first day of hte month in the evening. Seven days...."

    So there you have it, seven days beginning on Nisan 14th in the evening constituting the Seven Days of Unfermented Cakes, with the DATE changing at Midnight, and the Seder ending at the time the angel of death arrives...12:10 "And you must not leave any of it over til morning..." This is a reference to the morning of the 15th which began at Midnight. Here are the seven days:

    DAY 1: Nisan 14/15: Sabbath day, Seder held from sundown to Midnight, Solemn assembly and special sabbath meal held at Noon.

    DAY 2: Nisan 15/16

    DAY 3: Nisan 16/17

    DAY 4: Nisan 17/18

    DAY 5: Nisan 18/19

    DAY 6: Nisan 19/20

    DAY 7: Nisan 20/21, in the evening, meaning ending the evening of Nisan 21, another SABBATH DAY.

    JESUS' LAST WEEK: Now, presuming the above is correct after you've checked it out further if need be, although I have and this is the correct understanding as well as the precise way the Jews celebrate the meal orthodoxically now--guess they didn't lose track of how to celebrate their most significant holiday--then this is How Jesus' last week went:

    NISAN 14/15, 33 CE, Friday: As Luke 22:7 points out, Jesus sent his disciples out on the same day that the lambs were to be sacrificed, which was early on Nisan 14th. The lambs were sacrificed specifically around 3 pm. He sent two disciples, John and Peter ahead to prepare; one to prepare the fixins and one to take the sheep to the temple to be sacrificed since they were in Jerusalem. This is confirmed by Josephus who says the lambs were slaughtered in assembly line style for thousands of celebrants from the 9th to the 11th hours. Thus at sunset it became the sabbath of the first day of unfermented cakes, a date that would become the 15th at Midnight when the meal was to end.

    That means that Jesus was arrested on Saturday morning, Nisan 15th; not only a Saturday but also a special sabbath of Passover.

    It wasn't until specifically sunrise, though, that Jesus was taken to the Sanhedrin. "At length when it became day, the assembly of older men of hte people...haled him into their Sanhedrin hall.." It was now DAY, let's say between 5:30 and 6:00 a.m. They interrogated and accused Jesus falsely until he was condemned at which time they brought him before Pilate at the usual time for Pilate to deal with the people which was just before Noon. The Greek term for when they brought him before Pilate is "but(de) early" meaning just before the "early evening" watch. There were three evening watches: early evening, evening, and "late evening", which often is simly expressed as "early" or "late", etc. But please note is is already Noon on Saturday, Nisan 15th and Jesus is just now being heard by Pilate. Also note that around this time is when the Jews were celebrating their solemn assembly and the special sabbath meal that was held at that time. Thus some of the Jews, not wanting to defile themselves because they wanted to eat "passover" is why they didn't enter into the governor's palace. This was thus another special meal associated with Pssover Week and not the Seder meal which was already over which Jesus had already eaten. Because the reference is so common among the Jews, when translated, it is thought this is another reference to the Seder meal and thus the meal Jesus ate was a pre-Seder passover meal and the Jews were talking about the meal they would later eat that day. But not so. Jesus ate the official Passover Seder meal and this reference to eating the "sabbath" was the Noon-time 15th sabbath meal.

    Jesus was interrogated by Pilate for a while, even dismissing Jesus who was then dressed up by the guards and then Pilate brought him out again. This likely took most of the afternoon. Finally when Pilate found out he was from Galilee he decided to send him to Herod.

    Herod wasn't expecting Jesus. Herod had to examine him, hear witnesses, whatever. This took place over the next several days until the day Herod had to return Jesus to Pilate, the day that one of the prisoners in custody was to be released. Thus Jesus was in the custody of Herod, undergoing trial part of that time, up until the morning of Wednesday, Nisan 19th. This is the day that Herod and Pilate became quick friends and when Pilate decided to release Jesus.

    Nisan 21st was another "high sabbath" day. The prisoners would be on the crosses for nearly a full day before having to be taken down. Thus the impalements were the night of preparation, the day before the sabbath, and the trial on Wednesday was the afternoon before preparation. Preparation would begin, as usual, that evening.

    Thus, not understanding, again, the subtleties of koine Greek, the Greek pronoun/adjective "de" appearing with the time of the day reference to "preparation for passover", that is, the day before the passover sabbath of Nisan 21st, is not translated. John 19:14 when it says "it was de-preparation for passover" actually means it was just before preparation for passover at the sixth hour, that is Noon. In other words, "preparation" would begin six or so hours later.

    This is another indication why the Nisan 14th death of Christ doesn't work. This trial was "de-preparation for passover"; that is, on the day before preparation for passover. Now there are only two days that can be described as "preparation for passover", those being the two days preceding the two sabbath days of Passover, either Nisan 15th, or Nisan 21st. So this reference to Noon, "de-(just before) preparation" is either Thursday, Noon Nisan 13th, or Wednesday, Noon, Nisan 19th. Obviously, this must be a reference to the latter.

    Moving right along, therefore, after Jesus' trial at Noon, maybe lasting up to an hour since Pilot didn't want to condemn him, he spent some waiting time again with the troops who teased him and dressed him up, finally leading him out to Calvary when someone coming from the field, likely a day worker now in Jerusalem to help with the barley harvest, thus after the workday after sundown, was employed to help Jesus with his torture stake (cross). By the third hour though, that is, 9 p.m. that night, now the day of "preparation" Jesus was impaled.

    Jesus thus spent all that night and the following morning up until Noon on the torture stake. It was not at the sixth hour, 24 hours after his trial the previous day that it became dark and remained dark for three hours until Jesus died at the ninth hour (3 p.m.). This was late on the day of preparation. Note the references to this time the Greek does not include the pronoun "de" before these references to the time of day; only at John 19:14 where the reference is "before" the day of preparation. When "de" is left off, it is a reference understood to be "during" that time, or on that day. Thus Jesus' death during the day of preparation just before the sabbath of the 7th day of unfermented cakes was to begin, a special "high sabbath" day constituted day one of the "three days and three nights" Jesus was to remain in the tomb as prophesied. That is, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night. Jesus rose Saturday night/early Sunday morning before day.

    He then was around for 40 days and ascended to heaven. Pentecost is 50 days from the 15th and thus 45 days from the 20th, the day Jesus died. Thus instead of it taking ten days from the time of Christ's ascension for holy spirit to arrive, it really was a week less; that is, only 3 days.

    And that is the true Biblical understanding of the chronology of Christ's last week. He did not die on Nisan 14th. There was no pre-passover meal, and John 19:14's reference to de-preparation does not mean Jesus' trial was on the day of preparation but before a day of preparation which can only be the day of preparation for passover preceeding Nisan 21st since we know that preparation of Nisan 14th was over at Midnight the same night Jesus ate the traditional Seder Passover meal.

    JUST FOR LEOLAIA: Now just for Leolaia since she is so good at reference. Two things:

    1) the "time, times and half time" is reference here for the 70 weeks prophecy because Jesus is to be cut off at "mid-week". But, this half week is not counted as 42 months but 43 months, because about every 3 years an intercalary month is added. That's why sometimes 3-1/2 years is calculated as 1260 days and sometimes 1290 days. In this case, the 1290 days is significant in relation to fulfilling PENTECOST. That's because, as noted above, Pentecost is 50 days from Nisan 15th but 45 days from Nisan 20th. When Jesus died, he ended his "ministry". Thus from the 20th when he died until Pentecost, 45 days later, we note that Pentecost fulfills the symbolic "1335 days" mentioned in Daniel 12. This sets up a prophetic pattern for the association Pentecost/1335 days with Pentecost.

    2) Again, because subtle but technical reference in ancient koine Greek are not picked up on by translators, often specific time references are missed. Thus you should enjoy what Matthew 28:1 actually means. I don't have a copy of the Kingdom Interlinear handy, but you can look this up. Basically it says: "After the sabbaths, when it was growing light on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to view the grave."

    But note that the "first day of the week" is based upon the Greek words "one sabbaths" meaning one day after the sabbath, and thus the first day of the week.

    But of note, not that both of these references to "sabbath" are PLEURAL. Why? and isn't this "redundant"? No. That's becuse of the Jewish common reference to two major "high sabbaths" or holidays in a row during Passover week as simply "the sabbaths". It is much like you'd understand what I was talking about when I say "The Holidays". These "Holy-days" are a reference to the special Passover holidays/sabbaths of Nisan 15th and Nisan 21st.

    But why the second pleural "sabbaths" to describe the first day of the week? After all, you can say "one sabbath" and know it's Sunday. The reason why, is because in this case, there are two sabbaths in row involved and thus so that there is no misunderstanding "one sabbaths" is a reference to the day after two sabbaths. Those sabbaths are Friday Nisan 21st, the "high sabbath" of passover, followed by the regular Saturday Sabbath of Nisan 22nd.

    So a very modern and loose translation of this text, as it would have been understood back then, is: "After the Holidays of Passover, the day following the double sabbath weekend, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb."

    Therefore, regardless of what is said regarding the chronology of Passover and Jesus' last week, the advanced language understanding of Matthew 28:1 which includes the local custom and language is specific about precisely when Jesus rose, that is, it was after both Passover sabbaths and following a double-sabbath weekend, which could only be a reference to Sunday, Nisan 23rd.

    Thus the problem here is that Christians are not Jews. If you were Jewish, you'd understand that the "day the lambs were sacrificed" was Nisan 14th and that Passover is held on Nisan 14th and that the meal ended at Midnight and thus it was Nisan 15th when Jesus was arrested.

    You'd also know when John 19:14 spoke of "yet preparation for passover" at the sixth hour it had to be the day before preparation of the second passover sabbath, and thus John 19:14 is being specific about the date and timing here, but it's not understood by translators who don't generally pay attention to when "de" is used with preparation and when it's not.

    Finally, when Luke makes a reference to this being "after the sabbaths, one day after the sabbaths" when Mary Magdalene came, they would know what this meant, simply after The Holidays on a Sunday following two sabbaths in a row. Thus this is specific about Sunday, Nisan 23rd. They wouldn't be confused.

    Of course, one thing that has been lost over the centuries, even among Jews, is understanding about the DATE CHANGE at Midnight; that is, understanding that the Jews, like the Egyptians changed their DATE at Midnight though they had other concepts of when the day began, either at nightfall or sundown, depending. But their traditions are correct. Basically they date Passover on the 15th, celebrating Seder on Nisan 14th after sundown. Christians, in a desperation to have Jesus fulfill Nisan 14th, coupled with the very brief chronology across the gospels which seem to fit into one morning, all have Jesus incorrectly dying the same day he was arrested, which is not correct.

    But here's one even the WTS can't get out of and actually ADMITS they don't understand it! You know that if Jesus was impaled at the ninth hour(9 o'clock) and it got dark at the sixth hour (Noon) that there's no way his trial, also at the sixth hour per John 19:14 could possibly work. So you can't really blame the gospel writers too much for the misconception since that point alone suggests they are talking about two different days. It should have forced us to look closer. Also, of course, just because they don't detail all those days Jesus was in custody, as I've noted, John was specific about the trial being before preparation for passover which was following the original passover, so that should not have been confusing. Matthew 28:1 confirms this was after the Passover "sabbaths" ("The Holidays") and on the first day of a week following a double sabbath weekend, which would have also given the chronology framework of precisely when this was. Thus the Jews back then would not have been confused about this at all. They wouldn't be inventing extra pre-sedar sabbaths to make all this work out. The "honest ones" of course, simply claim there's a conflict between John and the "synoptic gospels". But the Watchtower Society, in rare form, actually say "We don't know" about how Jesus could be impaled at 9 am and his trial not be until Noon.

    But they're not completely off the hook. I have seen no confrontation regarding how Jesus could be on trial at Noon and it still gets dark at Noon. And to think all the witnesses haven't bothered to wonder about this except a few! But when you finally lay it all out, understand the customs and well as the language, then everything is harmonious, including the prophetic applications of Pentecost and the 1335 days.

    Thanks for your commentaries Leolaia, and this article Shotgun, I hope this has answered your questions. If not, at least you know what others have come up with to resolve the seeming contradictions (i.e. trial and darkness at Noon?).

    JC

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