Finally, an interesting Christian!

by Marilyn 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • Marilyn
    Marilyn

    From the Australian Age newspaper:

    John Shelby Spong, the retired Episcopalian bishop who calls for a new Reformation of the Christian faith, was born in North Carolina in 1931. He was raised, he says, in a church that taught him blacks were inferior and that segregation was the will of God, that women were second-class and did not deserve equal rights within the church, that Jews were evil and responsible for killing Jesus and that homosexuals were either mentally sick or morally depraved. "I have spent my entire life getting out from under that upbringing," he says.

    In 1948, he sought to involve young black Episcopalians at a youth convention and was over-ruled by his bishop. In the early '60s, his advocacy of racial integration resulted in him being declared Public Enemy Number One at a Ku Klux Klan rally. Asked if he has received death threats for championing the rights of women, homosexuals and blacks, he replies, "only sixteen". With just a trace of irony, he adds: "And not one of them has been from an atheist.They've all been from true
    believers."

    Spong, who is in Australia publicising his autobiography, Here I Stand, is a Christian who does not believe in lliteral interpretations of the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth, the cornerstones of his own religion. He is characterised by his enemies as a vapid liberal whose theology amounts to no religion at all and, earlier this month, Governor-General-designate and Anglican Bishop of Brisbane, Peter Hollingworth, banned him from preaching in churches under his control.

    Spong may be liberal, but vapid he is certainly not, describing the ban in characteristically forthright manner as an example of "ignorant, fundamentalist, evangelical religion". On a previous visit to Melbourne, Spong said that his books sold better per capita in Australia than in any other country, persuading him there was a "spiritual hunger" in Australia that the established churches were failing to satisfy.

    Christianity, Spong believes, is at a critical moment in its historical fortunes. "Inside Christianity, it looks like the right-wing is growing but in fact it's a bigger percentage of a smaller number. The old broad church has gone. The thinking people have left. Christianity is a declining reality."

    He cites the case of Belgium, a Roman Catholic country, which had 12,000 priests 35 years ago. Now, he says, it has 3000 priests with an average age of more than 60. What happens, he asks, when that progression is stretched over another 10 to 20 years? In recent years, Spong has lectured at universities including Oxford and Harvard. "The old song doesn't sing with that generation any more. They're deeply interested in God, deeply interested in what I call spiritual things, but they're not at all interested in the church and that's where I'm trying to break this thing open." Spong says Christianity is trapped in pre-modern images. "It can't get its message out. The God the church traditionally understands is a supernatural being who lives somewhere above the sky and invades the world periodically through miracles."

    Spong says "the entry story" that Christian mythology provided for such a celestial entity was the virgin birth while "the exit story" was the idea of the resurrection as a cosmic ascent. He argues that the idea of the virgin birth did not first appear until more than 50 years after Jesus' death. "I think Jesus was divine because he was fully human. In Jesus, I see the
    life of God being lived, the love of God being shared, the being of God manifested. Does that mean I think God impregnated a
    Jewish maiden on a Galilean hillside and created a half-God, half-man? To me, that's nonsensical," he says.

    Spong believes the early church was trying to say that in the fullness of Jesus' humanity we experience the presence of God and that the idea was then elaborated upon "in a strange way". Spong says the notion of the resurrection as a cosmic ascent would mean that Jesus either went into orbit or further out, into deep space. The gospels do not agree on what actually occurred, he argues. What is known, he says, is that after the death of Jesus when the disciples had forsaken him and fled, "they had some kind of powerful experience that convinced them Jesus was alive in the meaning of God" "This persuaded them to come back and become disciples, to redefine God through Jesus and establish as a new holy day the first day of the week."

    Spong sees Christian mythology as an amalgam of the historical influences the religion has encountered over the past 2000 years, initially spreading from being a Jewish sect to absorb Greek and Roman influences. He constantly argues from history, pointing out that arguments arising from literal translations of the Bible have been used in defence of institutions such as slavery, the prosecution of Galileo and the persecution of the Jews. In 1805, an American named Timothy Dwight passionately opposed vaccination on the grounds that it interfered with divine purpose.

    "For most people, religion doesn't serve the function of searching for the truth. It's about making people feel secure. If you're a Protestant and you accept that the Bible is the unerring word of God, or if you're a Catholic and you believe the Pope is infallible, you don't have to think. You just accept the authority of the church," he says.

    Spong says that, in contemporary affairs, Christianity is defined by what it's opposed to and cites, as an example, the stand by the new Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, George Pell, "that gay people aren't welcome at the eucharist". Christianity is about empowerment, about living more fully, he says. "Jesus' life transcended the life of the self-centred creature of survival." With him, says Spong, homo sapiens touched the life of the eternal God.

    The bishop has what might be described as an evolutionary view of religion. As he tells the story, human existence began as a single cell, probably in Australia. Plants and animals formed, dinosaurs came and went and humans found themselves "top of the heap". Then, perhaps 50,000 to 100,000 years ago, self-consciousness formed.

    In this scheme is there such a thing as sin, I ask. Spong says sin is when we make survival our highest value and become radically self-centred. "If I cross your lifeline or you cross mine, we kill at that point." This principle manifests in arguments over religion, where for one person's conception of God to exist another person's conception has to be destroyed.

    Is there such a thing as sexual sin? "Sexual activity either enhances or destroys life. It depends on how you use it. Not all homosexual activity is life enhancing but neither is all heterosexual activity." Recently, in Kalgoorlie, Spong saw a sign iadvertising a brothel tour, a concept he found morally depraved. Similarly, he says a homosexual man who has 1000 partners in a year is enhancing neither his own life or that of his partners.

    "I can't tell you what God is," Spong says, "but neither can anyone else. I can only tell you how I experience God. "My understanding of life is limited. In a hundred or a thousand years from now, people are going to think my thoughts were very primitive because knowledge keeps expanding."

    The paradox, he agrees, is that once spiritual insights are put into words there will always be those who say the words must never be changed. And, he further agrees, that paradox is unlikely to change.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    But is he a Christian?

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
    TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi Marilyn,

    I agree, he is a very refreshing specimen but sadly alone. I have read 3 of his books where he pretty much pick the Bible to shreds, and they are very good in my opinion. But after reading them one wonders in vain what he bases his faith upon, and why he bothers with it.

    Norm

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    Good Lord! I'm astonished. Surely you are aware Spong represents the contemporary view of a huge number of mainstream Protestants and what is taught in such major seminaries as Princeton Theological, Yale Divinity (Berkley), and so on.

    I have no interest in debating this, but it does speak to what Ros is saying: So many are just not aware of what actually is taught and embraced by individuals who are not bound to a narrow, rigid fundamentalism. Many of the local stores simply don't carry contemporary other than fundamentalist, primarily because they are tied in to suppliers who recommend their stock.

    Jack Spong is as fine a Christian as I've ever met, and when he speaks about his love for God and his faith, it's evident. BTW he's going to do a cyberspace column on sex. Driving conservatives nuts at the thought ...

    ::one wonders in vain what he bases his faith upon, and why he bothers with it.

    No need to wonder in vain, Norm. He's quite clear as to what he bases his faith on. Let me take this opportunity to share with others what books are out there, for openers. I highly recommend Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism.

    Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile

    Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture

    Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of Misunderstanding

    This Hebrew Lord: A Bishop's Search for the Authentic Jesus

    Living in Sin?: A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality

    Here I Stand : My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love, and Equality

    The Bishop's Voice : Selected Essays, 1979-1999

    Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop's Search for the Origins of Christianity

    The Letters of Paul (Riverhead Sacred Text Series)
    Honest Prayer

    Beyond Moralism : A Contemporary View of the Ten Commandments

    How a New Faith is Being Born

    A New Christianity for a New World : Why Traditional Faith Is Dying and What Should Take Its Place

    In the Courts of the Lord : A Gay Priest's Story

    Again, this is not something I choose to debate. I see too much belittling others' longing for Something other than one can "prove," which may tend to rob others of their choice to explore.

    And this is just from one robust author, who is certainly not "sadly alone."

    Warmly,
    Maximus

  • Quester
    Quester

    Yes Spong is a Christian.
    No he is not alone. I think that Spong is
    more radical and extreme of the bunch though.

    Karen Armstrong,
    Marcus Borg,
    Raymond E. Brown
    John Dominic Crossan
    John Hicks
    J. P. Meier

    To name just a few that I have found so far.
    Although these do differ in their beliefs and they
    range from more conservative to radical, I think
    all are generally of the modern day scholarship
    group. This is where you will find things like,
    the virgin birth and resurrection stories of Jesus
    are not literal historical facts.

    My local Barnes and Noble bookstore as well as
    the library are well stocked with these types of
    books. I agree with Maximus about being ignorant of
    modern day scholarship. I just discovered all this
    about 9 months ago. Quester

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hello Maximus,

    You said:

    Good Lord! I'm astonished. Surely you are aware Spong represents the contemporary view of a huge number of mainstream Protestants and what is taught in such major seminaries as Princeton Theological, Yale Divinity (Berkley), and so on.

    I have no interest in debating this, but it does speak to what Ros is saying: So many are just not aware of what actually is taught and embraced by individuals who are not bound to a narrow, rigid fundamentalism. Many of the local stores simply don't carry contemporary other than fundamentalist, primarily because they are tied in to suppliers who recommend their stock.

    So people keep telling me all the time, yet when you speak to any on these mainstream Clergy’s “flock”. They seem to have totally omitted communicating this to their congregations. Because they remain as ignorant as ever.

    No need to wonder in vain, Norm. He's quite clear as to what he bases his faith on. Let me take this opportunity to share with others what books are out there, for openers. I highly recommend Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism.

    Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture

    Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of Misunderstanding

    Living in Sin?: A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality

    Read all 3 of them and I still wonder what he base his faith upon.

    Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile

    Next on my reading list.

    Again, this is not something I choose to debate. I see too much belittling others' longing for Something other than one can "prove," which may tend to rob others of their choice to explore.

    And this is just from one robust author, who is certainly not "sadly alone."

    Warmly,
    Maximus

    Spong might not be sadly alone in scholarly circles, but if so, as I stated above they really do have a gargantuan uphill struggle in front of them, if they want to educate their “flocks”. Their absolute worst enemies is the Christian Fundamentalists not the odd atheist.

    Norm.

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    Norm, I understand exactly where you're coming from.

    I'm not going to lift a quotation and tell you what Spong bases his faith on, (you cite another, then I lob back a different quote and imply you are an idiot or otherwise less-than) because you certainly have the capacity to do that on your own. You are free to agree or disagree with what Spong or N.T. Wright or anyone else says.

    I just don't want anyone to avoid looking behind Door A or Door B just because they think intelligent people have already peeked in there and have, through logic and reason, determined there is nothing worthwhile. It's about choice. My take-home message, "Get informed, take nothing for granted that you have been told."

    ::They seem to have totally omitted communicating this to their congregations. Because they remain as ignorant as ever.

    Glad you said "seemed" because I don't usually find unfounded assertions in your posts. Walk into a mainstream, modern Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian or Presybterian church. You may be astonished at what is discussed. Even in some Southern Baptist churches.

    Someone recently took me up on my challenge, and as luck would have it a priest matter-of-factly tossed off, "Of course we don't believe in a personal devil." Proceeded to note the book of Job was of Persian roots and barely made it into the canon; Good vs. Bad, evil god, good god dualism stuff of Zoroastrianism. Gave a polished, moving sermon on which lady scrambed to take notes. Said she learned more in a l5-minute homily/sermon that in years of Watchtower studies. Also learned that no reputable scholar believes Paul wrote the book Hebrews. And that Martin Luther had his doubts about the book of Revelation.

    My line was like that to Farkel, "There is a God and she has a powerful sense of humor." Ah, serendipity.

    Here's the kicker. Most just don't seem driven to convert everybody! We've been so attuned to thinking that preaching to others is the sine qua non of life ...

    Most have scads of classes, not just on the Bible, but support groups for mothers, the homeless Alzheimer's caregivers. The roots of Alcoholics Anonymous are in the Episcopal Church and the Oxford Movement, and that Church has a very active Recovery Ministries for addicts. You will find kitchens busy making hot food and/or programs for the homeless, education and succor for the poor pregnant girl who is afraid and alone. I saw the budget of ONE Southern Baptist church that had earmarked $900,000 for the poor.

    Within a single parish/church you will find liberals and conservatives theologically, but who are INCLUSIVE.

    I've watched diametrically opposed Luke Timothy Johnson (professor at Candler Theological, Emory) duke it out with Dominic Crosson on a public platform. Neither sneered at the other, got supercilious or snide, but intensely made their points. Got off, hugged each other and went to lunch with a great bottle of wine. Genuinely care deeply for each other.

    Lord, is that strange to those of us in the organization for decades or what?

    Many who ask me for suggestions tell me they are angry at God, yet are chilled at the prospect of being alone in the universe, isolated, vulnerable. They want something to sustain them when they reach the point when they look at the ceiling tiles in the nursing home. Others I know have developed spirituality to a degree I envy, and it has nothing to do with Christianity per se. There is a ton of material out there. We are used to the question, "Where would we go?" Do we have to go anywhere?

    We have choices.

    Maximus

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Marilyn: Spong is somewhat an enigma. His teachings and writings defy traditional Christian belief and at times are contra-christain. Yet, he is asking many of the right questions in an honest framework. He just does not have as many good answers. I do agree with his observation that Christianity is at a historical threshold, but I am not certain where traditional Christianity will go from here. But, I think that Spong and other acclaimed Christians need to ask even more basic questions and provide more solid answers as I discussed in my response to Ros this morning. - Amazing

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