What Drives exJWs to atheism #2

by ros 4 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ros

  Sorry, folks. I have a frequent problem of not being able to open certain threads, and now it has happened to my own thread titled "What Drives exJWs to atheism. I have a reply for some, but anyone who posted after a first post by "Quester" I have not been able to see, so if any were addressed to me, I'm not ignoring you, I just didn't see it. Sorry.
  Here's my reply to some of the posts up to and including Quester:

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  Hello, Pathothorns, Abbadon, and Quester! :

  I should explain the reason for my post on this subject. Yesterday I read two threads, one by LDH where the intrusion of never-been-JWs fundies' preaching got sickening-as usual-and a follow-up one from Copernicus trying in vain to reason with them.
  In discussing Biblical issues-repeat, "in discussing Biblical issues"-lack of "logic" in dogmatic fundies far-r-r-r exceeds that of JWs-IMO. Notice, however, I am NOT inferring that atheists or agnostics are not logical. I believe in a lot of things-and so do you-that have nothing to do either with logic or religion. It is my understanding that about 49% of scientists believe in a supreme Creator personage. Regarding "logic", scientists (both non-theists and theist) have often come to "logical" conclusions that proved to be flawed because their initial premises were flawed. That is not bad and it does not mean they were not logical. It is accepted as a matter of course in science.
  In the sense that you use the term "logic", to me, atheism is not logical-to you it is. Its all in your perception. Timothy McVeigh based his actions on his perceived "logic".

  This thread should have had a title more specific to the point I was trying to make. For that I apologize to the atheists here. My main point was the never-been-JW fundies who invariably come on these xJW forums succeed in the opposite of what they intend. They have actually ruined some of our forums.

  Pathothorns:
  

  I think of those that leave, most seem to be more comfortable proclaiming themselves to be agnostics as opposed to athiests.

  In my view, professed agnosticism is far more "logical" than atheism.
  Some atheists are as dogmatic as some fundies. I agree that agnosticism has been the bigger drawing.
  

  I do think this turning people away from belief in God is their greatest crime, since they accomplish the exact opposite of what they set out and claim to do. Although I feel comfortable in saying I don't know anymore.

  Exactly my point about fundies.

  As much as out of logic, this conclusion for me is a self protection mechanism in that I was led astray once and will do everything possible to prevent it from happening again.

  
  Now THAT is what I consider an honest realization. Enjoyed your reply, Path.

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  Abbadon:

  I think the fact that there is no god 'drives' many xJW's to becoming atheists.

  
  A perfect example of atheist dogmatism. Thanks for illustrating my point.

  I think we both have to accept each others right to decide.

  
  Agree. No question about that.

  I do not always see the same level of knowledge of science in xJW theists. Very often they, in addition to having a belief in god, have quite low levels of scientific knowledge or major misconceptions about scienece, often dating from the days when they regarded the 'Creation Book' as a masterpiece of scientific writing.

  
  However, I don't see a significant difference in ACTUAL scientific knowledge among a lot of xJW non-theists either generally speaking; I think that is a misperception that has been promulgated on H2O and now here. Kind of a "if you're an atheist you're more scientifically aware" mentality. It ain't necessarily so. People who REALLY understand science realize that it is not an either/or proposition with religion. Those who believe that it is expose themselves as not really understanding the premise of science, as defined by scientists themselves (not me).

  Also, some xJW theists seem to believe that atheists are unhappy, afraid of death, lost, resentful, angry with god, and have no spirituality.

  That's what fundies push, too. Its true of some people, but not all. Some professed Christians are unhappy and in denial; most are definitely afraid of death in my observation.
  =======================
  Quester:

  Hey Ros,

  GHP2 here, who has oddly become inspired to post on this board lately. :)

  Hey, Quester, I'll have to keep your addy in mind. Good to see you surfacing here!
  

  When people mention logic, it always reminds me of the Star Trek character, Spock. He could not understand the simplest things sometimes because he was too logical, too literal. I think there are different kinds of knowing beside logic and if a person relies on logic/facts alone they are limiting themselves.

  
  Precisely my view.

  I too considered the jw religion a step up from other traditional literalistic or fanatical Christian religions. From studying modern day Bible scholarship and contemporary writings, I now know that there are other more positive alternatives out there for me. Quester

  
  There SURE ARE! Thanks for your thoughts. The "silent majority" perhaps?
• 

  Hojon

  It is my understanding that about 49% of scientists believe in a supreme Creator personage.

  Actually the number is more like 4% of "hard" sciences, like physics/paleontology/astromony. It's when "sciences" like psychology and philosophy are included the number goes up. But among hard scientists the number that believe in god or something similar is very low.

  BTW I haven't been on here for a while. I'm over on Tishie's (now Randy's) board generally but it's been slow at work and I stumbled across this link the other day and though I'd pop in. :)
• 

  ros

  Hojon:
  May I ask the source of your statistics?
  My adult working life has been spent in high-tech giant corporations, initially in the field of nuclear energy where in some circumstances the PhDs in physics outnumbered the clerical personnel. Many of the physicists and biologists I have worked with theists and some of them are/were Christian. Some are even graduates of Christian universities, including such as the likes of Mormons and Catholic. Very few are absolute atheists--in my personal experience. There are, of course, a significant number of agnostics.
  I would say you statistics might be very realistic for scientists vs. fundamentalists.
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Ros: You said that you were not able to see posts after 'Quester'. Mine was the first after Quester. here it is again:

  Hi Ros: Some above have suggested logic as the basis for x-jws to become atheists. I am not sure that pure logic is the reason in and of itself. On the surface, logic should cause one to conclude that the complex universe could as easily be designed as not, and that a wait and see attitude would be more logical.
  I think the issue is one of distrust and a willingness to question everything. The distrust seems to have its birth upoin leaving JWs, because one sees that so many things have been twisted, contorted, and even lied about by religious men in leadership. As a person begins to examine other religions, the Bible, ancient cultures, and what various professional critiques have discovered about these basic foundation stones upon which Christianity is built, then the distrust emerges and grows into total distrust of almost anything religious.

  Upon using science to further the evaluation, serious questons begin to form, and this is where a certain level of logic comes into play as a tool. For example, some good issues are raised with the observation that viruses exist, and are observed to evolve. If the world was a designed and created product of a wise and loving God, then why do these basic lifeforms evolve and harm all living things?

  Another example is that of Adam and Eve, their sin, and the impact upon the rest of humanity. God was holding all the cards, made all the rules, and had the power to deal with any situation any way he wants. Atheists and Agnostics find it difficult to believe that God would 'booby-trap' Adam and Eve such that when they eat a peice of silly fruit, that future generations of humans for thousands of years would be born in sickness and death, with a bent toward sinning. How can sin be charged against people who were born with that tendancy? How can God hold people accountable for sin when it was his own design that forced them to sin? These are just a sample of the types of questions that seem to not have any satisfactory answers.

  FInally, science leads one to demand reasonable level of proof, not that faith would be totally dissolved, but at least have some level of proof that what we know of God is not merely a product of human invention, being refined with layers and layers of better plausibilities as the centuries advance in science. So far, most any argument advanced in favor of God's existence is based on human conjecture and mere claims that holy books, such as the Bible, is or contains inspiration from God. No real evidence exist that this is not purely human contrivance. So, the skeptical individual who is Agnostic or Atheist learns that anything claiming to originate with God can more than likely be shown to as easily originate with creative human invention.

  A good example is prayer. Not one person on this earth can demonstrate that when they pray, God is there lkistening. No one can demonstrate that God talks to them and converses in any real substantive relationship. Claims that prayers are answered as evidence of God can only be made by those who feel that prayers were answered. What about the millions of people who pray for many of the same things and get no answer? The claim is made that God must have said no to them. But, really, it can as easily be that by chance, some people got what they wanted and most people did not, because the law of large numbers and averages is that some people will realize what they want, and most will not. Yet, in all this, the honest person has to admit that they have no real idea whether God was there listening, said yes, or no to them, or that he is not there at all, and the events are then merely interpreted to mean what they think God must have intended for them.

  I think the questions you you might now want to ask is What basis do those ex-JWs who retain faith have for continued belief in God? On what rational, logical, or scientific basis do they have to believe in a god? What gives them reason for faith? From an atheist point of view, religious people in today's advanced level of technical and mental evolution, appear to be abuse victims. That is, God keeps ignoring religious people and offering no proof to fulfill their faith, and yet religious people keep coming back for more, even when they are sick and say, dying of cancer or some other loathsome disease. This might be comparable to a women who keeps going back to an abusive husband who says he loves her, and yet he keeps ignoring her needs, and allows outsiders to harm her, while he sits and watches, having the power to protect her, but does nothing. Does this not make God appear to be more of a ficticious person, an invention of wishful thinking?

  These are the questions religious people need to answer with more than well contrived plausibilities. Religous people need to provide some solid basic for faith. Faith is fine in and of itself, but must be anchored in something solid. As Paul put it, faith is the evidence demonstration of realities though not beheld. As a person of science, I have never seen electricity, but as an electrical engineer and researcher, I have seen the evident demonstration of its reality, the law combined with the theory, such that I have full faith in the existence of electricity, and can demonstrate it to others.

  This, Ros, is an example of what atheists and Agnostics need, especially those of the scientific variety, in order to develop an honest and truthful response to the possibility of God's existence. Then, faith may develop, but it must be accompanied by trust. Atheists and Agnostics find it hard to trust the God of the Bible who comes across as a bipolar schizoid, an angry jealous God who zaps them with snakes, wandering in the dessert for 40 years, and all kinds of wars, etc. and then when Jesus arrives, God seems like the new improved Mr. Nice Guy who never meant to harm anyone. Even them, God retains the desire to wipe out unbelievers at Armageddon by popping their eyes out, birds eating their flesh, and in some churches, these people then go to hell and burn for eternity while the Devil stabs them with a pitch fork.

  We as Christians have got to completely and honestly, with total openmindedness revisist our entire basis for belief in, faith in, and all claims about God, and see what it is that we can truthfully demonstrate with evidence, even if certain realities cannot be beheld ... much like demonstrating the existence and function of electricity while people still cannot see electricity. We need to do this, not with plausible comparative illustrations, but with rock solid and concrete evidenciary demonstration that proves the God's existence is more than human fantasy and wishful thinking.

  Amazing
• 

  Hojon

  There was a study done by one of the science mags, and I believe Time did something similar. I have this link but it doesn't seem to be working right now -> http://www.gsreport.com/articles/art000068.html

  I'll look around some more.

  Where did your 49% come from?

  EDIT- I found this link from "Nature" magazine. http://www.users.uniserve.com/~tfrisen/scintist.htm

  Their number is 7% that believe in god in the traditional sense. It also follows what I was saying above that the more "hard" a science (ie the more tied to the natural world ) the less likely they are to believe in god. That's an interesting correlation, the more a person knows about the world around us and how it works the less likely he is to believe in god.